COMPARE Stanford FinMath or CMU MSCF with scholarship

[jwsss]

chchch sorry I don't. All I know is that their class is really REALLY small and VERY selective. Then again, most competitive programs are. The thing about recruitment is that there's always a feeder relationships with these schools. Baruch, (arguably NYU), CMU (too far), UCB (WAAAAY TOO FAR) and a handful of other schools have their dedicated placement staff because their overall university wasn't a target school when it came to finance. The excellence of their program is an exception to their overall school rankings, and over the years their students and administrators had successfully proven themselves to employers. Big schools don't (feel the) NEED to compete. They assume they are already AWESOME, and you can ride that sense of pride / arrogance both ways. If you're Asian though, your parents will always prefer telling people you went to Stanford over CMU no matter how good the CMU program is.

There are different reasons why no public placement report is published. It CAN BE that yes they have horrible placement record. It can also be the fact that ACADEMICIANS DON'T CARE and they don't even bother to collect info. Placement info is a really b school / marketing thing for some MFE programs. Most Harvard, MIT, Princeton, or any other majors don't have detailed breakdown on their post-graduation placement report. It is not to say the school isn't good. They simply don't care and there's a sense of limited responsibility thing going on. As mentioned, these MEGA school simply don't need to flaunt around petty numbers to attract students. There will always be students who wanna be an Harvard, MIT, or Princeton alumni for ANY major. People who didn't go to these schools will tell you it doesn't matter. People who did go to school will probably tell you it doesn't matter. But ask your mother, and she'll tell you which school you should go to (regardless of major)

jwsss I've heard a lot of arguments regarding career services, and I share your concern. But here might be something to wonder about

1) intraschool competition - besides non-related major competition (compsci.... general engineering/math/stat), whom will you be competing for a job after graduation? There's a lot of buzz about networking and stuff, but remember you're networking with the same group of people over students from Rutgers, Baruch, CMU, Columbia, NYU, and whichever random math kid who think they can do your job. It's a lot easier to lock someone down who's visiting Stanford vs who's doing a tour through ALL NY SCHOOLS.

2) recruitment channel - MFEs don't have their dedicated recruitment channel. What it means is that most people get their jobs through those traditional analyst/associate programs (need less W/E) or direct placement as specialists (which usually requires W/E). It also means that as long as banks do recruit on your campus, you'll be just as competitive as everyone else. Career services can only help you GET information and send you to the right path, but they can't CREATE new jobs for you. So NYC people can proudly PROCLAIM their home advantage for having a lot of "information," but you're an international student and you will be going through standard protocols. You'll be applying through company websites, and hopefully get an on-campus interview. Chances are you'll be applying to jobs in China as well. Do program directors in NYC really have an unfair advantage over their non-NYC peers for jobs oversea? (But it is a fact that some directors are more EAGER to provide you the RIGHT info, and sometimes it can be a lot of help)

3) Given your admissions to these three programs, your track record is pretty much as good as it can get. Most people here will tell you a lot about how they had no experience and miraculously got a job all thanks to their schools, but you're already very promising and likely very accomplished in comparison to your age group. Doing a master is more likely a choice than a necessity. So even if there's no dedicated career services, you can do most of the information gathering / filtering yourself when it comes to recruitment.

Not to mention CMU is opening up an online option.... seriously diluting the worth of their brand.

I agree that they don't create new jobs for us. But, it will be a lot easier to gather more information with the help from career service. For biz school in my university, there are a bunch of ppl who dedicated browsing various companies' career website and post such information to the students, which can save a lot of time.

Without these kind of help, I may miss some information or there are some companies unknown (Such as some HF) to me and I will never look up their websites. This is actually the aspects I believe to be the so-called "advantage".

But, if (I may be wrong) every such company will come to Stanford themselves, this kind of advantage is non-existing any more, right?

 

[jwsss]

Also, I agree that opinion from family is indeed needed to be taken serious consideration, since they are paying the tuition fee for me.

 

[bullion]

Well, let's break down your post-graduation options

S&T (non-BB + small funds) - CMU. Funds tend to be local since they only hire one or two people. They already have many candidate in the NYC region to choose from, so they often don't travel far.

S&T (BB + large asset managers) - These firms travel in pack. They follow well-defined recruitment schedule from campus to campus and they visit to hire from all master students. You have no advantage / disadvantage from either CMU or Stanford as long as you take the right courses and prepare for your interviews.

all non S&T stuff - Stanford trumps in brand name. Non-S&T firms also usually don't recruit from CMU MSCF.

Basically, CMU/NYU/Baruch are specialty programs. They do S&T really really well, but they are virtually powerless outside their expert domain. Stanford/Princeton/Columbia/MIT/Cornell are generalist programs. They place people in all kinds of roles / industries because the rest of the schools can support it.

Another way to look at this is thinking about what alumni base you want to be in. CMU MSCF alumni are likely to be in very specific areas (trading, sales, portfolio management, risks), whereas you will be part of the entire art and science department at Stanford (VC, consulting, operational, fund management, etc).

 

[mfegrad]

Also, I agree that opinion from family is indeed needed to be taken serious consideration, since they are paying the tuition fee for me.

perhaps, but doesn't this perpetuate ignorance?

and if you can't stand up to your parents and make a rational fact-based argument as to why x is better than y, how in god's name will you ever be able to explain to the md of your desk what's happening as your desk's positions are taking a multi-million dollar hit?

i'm not saying cmu is better than stanford here. i'm just trying to do my part to abolish brand name/herd mentality.

 

[jwsss]

jwsss
Congrats on your admits. Can you please add your timelines to our Tracker?
I have no idea on how these names are perceived in each individual Asian country. Unless you are going to wear the name in your shirt everyday there, that is not important. By the time you go back to Asia, the top part of your resume should be Work Experience, not Education.

CMU has a much better organized career service since it is run by their B-School. I have dealt with a lot of people from their Tepper school and they seem to know what they are doing.
I can't say the same thing about a lot of other programs, Stanford included. It is very hard to get much detailed, meaningful information out of them.

I would be very skeptical of programs that don't publish yearly, up-to-date data on their placement/admission. It may not be important to you and everyone but transparency is #1 criteria to me.

I can't tell how CMU Pittsburgh students are doing but I know quite a few students in CMU NYC and they all seem happy with the internship/job that they get.

Andy, do you have any idea what percent of the small S&T companies could sponsor us, the international students?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

I agree that they don't create new jobs for us. But, it will be a lot easier to gather more information with the help from career service. For biz school in my university, there are a bunch of ppl who dedicated browsing various companies' career website and post such information to the students, which can save a lot of time.

That's not the kind of career services that people should pay top dollars for.

Here is what you can expect from the top MFE programs with proper career services.
Networking workshops, resume critique, mock interviews, visits and presentations from firms that hire MFE graduates, one-on-one mentor, priority access to unadvertised internship/job listings that just come on the market.
All of this is provided by the people within the program, not by the university general career service office.

If you expect anything less, you are not getting your money worth and unprepared for how competitive the market for entry-level MFE is.

Just ask the programs you are considering if they provide the things I list.

 

[atreides]

Also, I agree that opinion from family is indeed needed to be taken serious consideration, since they are paying the tuition fee for me.

Just curious, did you apply to UC Berkeley? Since you were competitive enough for CMU and Stanford, UCB is probably not outside the range of possibilities. Though each of the programs mentioned above have a certain profile they look for. That said, the placement numbers coming out of UCB is short of amazing and speaks for itself

 

[bullion]

perhaps, but doesn't this perpetuate ignorance?

and if you can't stand up to your parents and make a rational fact-based argument as to why x is better than y, how in god's name will you ever be able to explain to the md of your desk what's happening as your desk's positions are taking a multi-million dollar hit?

i'm not saying cmu is better than stanford here. i'm just trying to do my part to abolish brand name/herd mentality.

Yes, it DOES perpetuate ignorance. and Yes, CMU IS better :D But different curricula fit different needs. American culture often promote a disruptive model, so we welcome "breaking out" or "independent thoughts" from time to time. Asian culture puts a lot more pressure on following certain pecking orders because there are just so many candidates, and decisions regarding education, profession, or even marriage are often collective ones. It is not fair, however, for us to promote abolishment of the brand name / herd mentality for him. We don't know his circumstances. He needs to face his parents more often than he sees us. I will simply offer him the facts and certain logic for him to make his own choice.

jwsss: About what Andy Nguyen says about career services, Andy is absolutely right. Given your admissions to both programs, however, I'm gonna assume you have fairly stellar academic record and great working ethics. Taking MSCF as an example, their most recent employment report shows 43 out of 52 their graduating students getting positions at BB banks, which all recruit through normal campus-wide systems and on both campuses. Will you pass by an opportunity from the likes of UBS, RBS, Goldman Sachs, and Morgan Stanley for whatever other "unannounced opportunities" (not to mention that smaller firms generally don't sponsor)? The information gap from CMU to Stanford might be significant, but do you think CMU will have EXCLUSIVE JOB INFO that Baruch/NYU/Rutgers/Columbia don't have? Especially for fresh grad, you take on a huge risk by going with lesser known names. Sure, these lesser known opportunities might be a lifesaver when economy is bad or your school isn't a target school. But Stanford? I doubt it.

 

[DMD]

I am going to assume you are a pretty smart and accomplished twenty-something to be offered admission at a few of the top programs in the country. With this in mind, I think you ought to focus a little less on career and placement services and more on what school is the right 'fit' for you. Your choices are all top schools, you shouldn't have any trouble getting the right job if you focus on 1) your studies and 2) preparing yourself to be an obvious choice for recruiters.

Your choices are Columbia in NYC, CMU in Pittsburgh, and Stanford (in Stanford, CA). Not only do these schools vary hugely in location, campus, and overall atmosphere BUT the programs themselves are quite different. Each school has their own unique curriculum and 'style' of MFE/MSCF/MMF.

Here's how I decided on my grad program...
Apply a weight for each of the following (but not limited to) categories:
Location
Faculty
Curriculum
Brand Name
Ranking
etc.

Then rank the schools in each of the categories. Get your parents or close friends to help you. Get to know the details about each program and university. It will make your choice so much easier if you are an expert on each program.

Good luck.

 

[jwsss]

That's not the kind of career services that people should pay top dollars for.

Here is what you can expect from the top MFE programs with proper career services.
Networking workshops, resume critique, mock interviews, visits and presentations from firms that hire MFE graduates, one-on-one mentor, priority access to unadvertised internship/job listings that just come on the market.
All of this is provided by the people within the program, not by the university general career service office.

If you expect anything less, you are not getting your money worth and unprepared for how competitive the market for entry-level MFE is.

Just ask the programs you are considering if they provide the things I list.

Thanks Andy, your advice is really helpful. But I believe Stanford program doesn't have such career services, since it comes from Stats dept. It seems that there is no exclusive career service for this program but the university-level general one.

 

[jwsss]

Just curious, did you apply to UC Berkeley? Since you were competitive enough for CMU and Stanford, UCB is probably not outside the range of possibilities. Though each of the programs mentioned above have a certain profile they look for. That said, the placement numbers coming out of UCB is short of amazing and speaks for itself

No, I didn't apply for UCB.

 

[jwsss]

I am going to assume you are a pretty smart and accomplished twenty-something to be offered admission at a few of the top programs in the country. With this in mind, I think you ought to focus a little less on career and placement services and more on what school is the right 'fit' for you. Your choices are all top schools, you shouldn't have any trouble getting the right job if you focus on 1) your studies and 2) preparing yourself to be an obvious choice for recruiters.

Your choices are Columbia in NYC, CMU in Pittsburgh, and Stanford (in Stanford, CA). Not only do these schools vary hugely in location, campus, and overall atmosphere BUT the programs themselves are quite different. Each school has their own unique curriculum and 'style' of MFE/MSCF/MMF.

Here's how I decided on my grad program...
Apply a weight for each of the following (but not limited to) categories:
Location
Faculty
Curriculum
Brand Name
Ranking
etc.

Then rank the schools in each of the categories. Get your parents or close friends to help you. Get to know the details about each program and university. It will make your choice so much easier if you are an expert on each program.

Good luck.

Thanks ddrolet. Really appreciated.

 

[mfegrad]

Yes, it DOES perpetuate ignorance. and Yes, CMU IS better :D But different curricula fit different needs. American culture often promote a disruptive model, so we welcome "breaking out" or "independent thoughts" from time to time. Asian culture puts a lot more pressure on following certain pecking orders because there are just so many candidates, and decisions regarding education, profession, or even marriage are often collective ones. It is not fair, however, for us to promote abolishment of the brand name / herd mentality for him. We don't know his circumstances. He needs to face his parents more often than he sees us. I will simply offer him the facts and certain logic for him to make his own choice.

i have a very good understanding of asian culture, so i get what you're saying.

but it's absolutely fair to ask someone to question their societal/cultural beliefs. it's how progress happens, for better (19th amendment) or for worse (complete and utter breakdown of the nuclear family in the us or the 16th amendment ).

my point still stands. if you cannot stand up to your parents, there's no way in hell you'll be able to stand up to a fire-breathing md in the heat of the moment. and, not to open up a whole different can of worms, but learning to have a voice is one thing many international students never do, which brings up the "bamboo ceiling" debate. so, in a way, by encouraging him to break outside of what's known, we very well might help him later in life.

 

[bullion]

mfegrad well I don't know. As an American I would completely agree with you. But many banking institutions in China are state-owned or heavily monopolized. The promotion ladder is quite different there too. The US at least tries to install a free market mechanism when it comes to employment and competition. In China, virtually everything is regulated. You gotta tip off a lot of people to do anything there. Given how the Chinese gov't just ORDERED all banks to roll over their municipal bonds, you basically keep your job ONLY if you play by your MD (aka gov't) rules. And given how most politicians don't have the slightest idea about the difference between the two programs, they might respond better to general brand names.

jwsss Anyways, a lot had been said about the unique attributes for each program. I'm America-bound and I'm pretty dead set toward S&T, so CMU is my first choice (that and my dad already gave up on bragging to family members about me.) But given your circumstances and potential interest toward VC, your needs are different from most of us here. If you still can't figure out, flip a coin. You'll have at least 50% chance getting it right

 

[darth]

mfegrad You'll have at least 50% chance getting it right

Or you can flip a biased coin and have more than 50% chance of getting it right....

 

[GoIllini]

It should be noted that CMU is internationally renowned in CS, too. They are both very good programs; I would lean towards the one that is cheaper on a net-of-scholarship basis. I would also give some serious thought to CMU's Pitt campus if you go full-time. NYC is very expensive and I get the sense that you also get better access to faculty in Pittsburgh.

 

[GoIllini]

perhaps, but doesn't this perpetuate ignorance?

and if you can't stand up to your parents and make a rational fact-based argument as to why x is better than y, how in god's name will you ever be able to explain to the md of your desk what's happening as your desk's positions are taking a multi-million dollar hit?

i'm not saying cmu is better than stanford here. i'm just trying to do my part to abolish brand name/herd mentality.

By definition, if Mom and Dad are paying for school, they're not ignorant. They're smart for sending you to school.