# The Coming Glut of Financial Engineers

#### sak

##### Active Member
So whats the final call?? Should one go for this program or avoid it??

There is nothing like final call. The scary part of any discussion is to scare the fence sitters away cause people who love it will do it anyways.

#### omrangassan

hi all

it is so scary !

i'm planning to do MFE @ Stevens F2017 which will cost about 50k (tuition+fees). it feels scary when u read such articles here and there about Quants. its not a joke to pay such tag price to find myself alone after getting MFE and out of job ! may you share your updates ? how is the quant jobs market nowadays ? is there a true glut as described in the article ? is the article subjective ? was it so pessimistic ? Thanx #### Ken Abbott ##### Managing Director From a bank standpoint, quant analytical capacity has become a commodity. We talk about time series people, PDE people, etc. There is still great demand, however, on the risk and audit side. CCAR and other reg requirements are very quant-intensive. There may be continues demand on the HF side, but I can't speak to that. #### omrangassan ##### Member From a bank standpoint, quant analytical capacity has become a commodity. We talk about time series people, PDE people, etc. There is still great demand, however, on the risk and audit side. CCAR and other reg requirements are very quant-intensive. There may be continues demand on the HF side, but I can't speak to that. Thanx Ken 1- When u said (There is still great demand, however, on the risk and audit side.) : How Quant fit into Auditing side ? 2- What skills required for HF ? 3- What about demand for Quant/Algo trading ? 4- What you think about Stevens MFE program ? Regards #### Ken Abbott ##### Managing Director Thanx Ken 1- When u said (There is still great demand, however, on the risk and audit side.) : How Quant fit into Auditing side ? 2- What skills required for HF ? 3- What about demand for Quant/Algo trading ? 4- What you think about Stevens MFE program ? Regards 1. All quant processes need to be reviewed by quant auditors. 2. & 3. I don't know - I've never worked at one. 4. The engineering program has a great reputation, but I haven't worked with anyone from their MFE program. #### omrangassan ##### Member thank you @Ken Abbott @Ken Abbott @Andy Nguyen --- May you share any numbers about Stevens (SIT - MFE) from these points of view - Internships , Jobs Placement , Job Salary , Employment Stats , Employer Ranking score against SIT peers ? Thank you #### Philip_Mitterrand ##### Well-Known Member If you are giving 50K check you need to drill the Program Director & Staff with questions to the point where they will explicitly say its better than you don't join the program. Thanx Ken 1- When u said (There is still great demand, however, on the risk and audit side.) : How Quant fit into Auditing side ? 2- What skills required for HF ? 3- What about demand for Quant/Algo trading ? 4- What you think about Stevens MFE program ? Regards #### omrangassan ##### Member If you are giving 50K check you need to drill the Program Director & Staff with questions to the point where they will explicitly say its better than you don't join the program. thanx philip , totally true. #### Philip_Mitterrand ##### Well-Known Member Most of these programs are like Mafia business where the program directors have a mandate to fill the seats and bring a certain loot. Never make the mistake of thinking their interests and yours are aligned infact it is completely opposite. There is more accountability in drug dealing than education when it come to trend degrees like MFE. The benchmark for picking a program is visualizing how it ages down the years; like a fine wine shining on your CV or a cheap beer than you picked from your neighorhood bar. thanx philip , totally true. #### omrangassan ##### Member Most of these programs are like Mafia business where the program directors have a mandate to fill the seats and bring a certain loot. Never make the mistake of thinking their interests and yours are aligned infact it is completely opposite. There is more accountability in drug dealing than education when it come to trend degrees like MFE. The benchmark for picking a program is visualizing how it ages down the years; like a fine wine shining on your CV or a cheap beer than you picked from your neighorhood bar. wow, thats so big @Philip_Mitterrand ; thanx it really makes me questioning it. seriously, how you look at these fancy names, good looking, promising wealth ? it is something making anybody to count the cards again. plz share your ideas philip. #### unclear ##### Member It's been a year since someone last posted on this thread. Was just wondering if the state of the market for MFEs are getting dimmer. I'm trying to decide between going for MFE or masters in applied stats/econometrics for jobs related to statistics... #### bigbadwolf ##### Well-Known Member It's been a year since someone last posted on this thread. Was just wondering if the state of the market for MFEs are getting dimmer. I'm trying to decide between going for MFE or masters in applied stats/econometrics for jobs related to statistics... Other than the glut of MFEs, there are other emerging factors. One of these is (probably) another imminent financial/economic crisis for the USA. None of the deep systemic problems of 2008 have really been resolved and the USA has been living on borrowed time. Finance has been the only sector that has grown -- every sector of the real economy has been shrinking (notwithstanding misleading official stats on unemployment, inflation, and growth). I could go on in a similar vein but since these matters are not really discussed on this forum, I'll stop here. #### engineer_finance ##### New Member Years later, if I look at it, the demand has rather increased but if you only want to enter in pricing/trading, it remains (or decreased) where it was. Back in the days, Auditors were doing Audit, FRMs were producing VaR numbers and Statisticians were Statisticians. Now, Bank's Internal Audit teams have MFEs for auditing complex models, with FRTB in banks need more and more technical people. Statisticians are now Data Scientist but even on Asset Management side, you would see a lot of MFEs being hired (CPPIB Cananda, GIC SIngapore and alikes in US). UC Berkely have fair amount of people being hired as Data Scientists which is good. So, if you are technically flexible and flexibly technical, MFEs are going to be forever but if you only want to solve PDEs, better get yourself Pure Maths degree. Just my 2 cents. #### Daniel Duffy ##### C++ author, trainer but if you only want to solve PDEs, better get yourself Pure Maths degree. Not exactly true. Many disciplines solve PDEs on a daily basis. And a pure maths degree (depending on what it entails) is not a guarantee. You would need Mathematical Physics because PDE is all about applications. Pure maths is not primarily concerned with applications as such. Last edited: #### Ken Abbott ##### Managing Director Years later, if I look at it, the demand has rather increased but if you only want to enter in pricing/trading, it remains (or decreased) where it was. Back in the days, Auditors were doing Audit, FRMs were producing VaR numbers and Statisticians were Statisticians. Now, Bank's Internal Audit teams have MFEs for auditing complex models, with FRTB in banks need more and more technical people. Statisticians are now Data Scientist but even on Asset Management side, you would see a lot of MFEs being hired (CPPIB Cananda, GIC SIngapore and alikes in US). UC Berkely have fair amount of people being hired as Data Scientists which is good. So, if you are technically flexible and flexibly technical, MFEs are going to be forever but if you only want to solve PDEs, better get yourself Pure Maths degree. Just my 2 cents. This has not been my observation. Quant finance has become commoditized. Go to any consulting firm and you can call their rent-a-quant department and get a dozen in any flavor. There's work for them to do, to be sure, but that work isn't on the pricing side and it isn't often glamorous. Also, consider that the key marketing stat for these programs is placement, which is often well under 90% (particularly outside the top few programs). I've seen dozens and dozens of talented students end up underemployed. #### Grieze ##### New Member Interesting read and funny how this article is relevant to this day. To any current and future readers of this post I'd like to share my 2 cents on this topic. A quick background about myself, I actually graduated from Baruch College with a BA in Economics and attempted to go down the MFE route that my school offered because A) it's dirt cheap approximately25k if I recall correctly for an instate student such as myself, B) It's in the heart of midtown so it's in a prime area for networking with NYC's financial hub, all of the Bulge Bracket banks are a 20 block subway ride away, as opposed to Columbia's campus all the way up north in the 100s. C) Ranked 2nd in the US based on QuantNet itself, so it's an over all good program. I ended up taking Calc 1 and 2 after graduation to meet the prereqs for the program but stopped after 2 because I began working full time in Investment Banking/Corporate Finance and decided to work in M&A instead of S&T. I've left my position back in August because I became disenheartened with the work and am now back in school getting a BS degree in Mechanical Engineering with plans to continue on to graduate studies to specialize in a field of ME.

My observations based on my experience are so:
1. WALL STREET IS DRYING UP AND NO LONGER AS LUCRATIVE. Wall Street is no longer a lucrative career path, due to the advancements of technology and regulations choking out the banks. Pre-2008 Bankers, Lawyers, and Consultants were making incredible sums of cash, however after the crash it all ended and regulations have changed the bonus structure for bankers. Basically a bonus a Bank now gives is more in Stock than Cash, used in an effort to keep Managing Directors and Vice Presidents around for longer and to reduce the amount of rouge deals that were immoral and illegal. Also keep in mind, sure you may make 100-120k a year... but after taxes and it drops down to somewhere around 70-78k. You'll also probably be living in the city (assuming you'll be in NY) which idk if you've checked apartment rent prices but they're pretty expensive for a shoebox "one bedroom." Which will further decrease your savings. I've often seen so many young professionals in finance who can model DCFs and LBOs of complex corporations with ease, lack a basic understanding of personal finance.
2. LIMITATIONS. Quantitative Finance is a limiting field, and if you chose to get an MFE you will essentially be pigeon holed into the Finance world, so should you ever want to leave finance for say Artificial Intelligence research, best of luck as a MS/PhD Comp Sci candidate has higher chances of getting into that particular field.
3. DO NOT DO FINANCE FOR THE MONEY. I don't care what movies or books you've seen or read, Finance is not a party of a career. It's actually a field that involves long hours, mind numbing work, and at the higher levels, a lot of relationship management. (This is my bias coming out since I have experience in M&A which after all is still a relationship driven field and while tech has definitely impacted Corporate Finance, it will never be able to get rid of the core of M&A which is keeping constant communications going on between multiple parties for a live deal.) The people who truly succeed in this field are those who could care less about the money they make and care more about playing "the game." These are the guys and gals who will purposely reject an offer which could triple their all in comp simply because if they currently run their desk at their firm and the offer is for them to be a subordinate they'll reject it without a moments notice. These are people who want to win and don't care for a paycheck. My first director was like this and was a machine, reading 15 hours a day everyday on market news and updates.
4. INTERESTS AND PASSIONS. If you truly like quantitative analysis, computer programming, engineering or any other STEM discipline, I recommend studying those fields and getting graduate degrees in those. Especially for computer science. The reason being is because these degrees are actually much more versatile and I believe can last you a lot longer for your career than a MFE can. i.e. a Computer Scientist or Mathematician can go work in other interesting/demanding fields because the doors are open for people with those skill sets compared to "Quants."
5. INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS. American Universities are using you as a quick buck. So be incredibly weary and on guard for low tier universities promising you riches. I almost fell into this trap myself when I wanted to be an attorney, thankfully I was too dam cheap and stubborn and couldn't understand how $300,000 of law school tuition debt justifies you getting a job that will pay you only$60,000 a year if you don't get into a T14 school.
this link applies for Chinese students but still the overall message holds for all international students to let you know about how the programs really work.

If anyone else would like to add on to my points for anything that I missed please do. I also welcome criticism as I do understand my position as a "Banker" and not a Trader/Developer/Quant/Mathematician doesn't make me an expert authority on this but more some just some kid who's giving an opinion no one ever asked for in the first place.

#### unclear

##### Member
I've left my position back in August because I became disenheartened with the work and am now back in school getting a BS degree in Mechanical Engineering with plans to continue on to graduate studies to specialize in a field of ME.
I guess the grass is always greener on the side, because I know plenty of mechanical engineers that are regretting their decisions of going to ME field. If you're really commited to the field of ME, and wants to do the coolest and latest and greatest, you'd have to go all the way to PhD. Most ME's that I know end up doing CAD and after awhile, that sorts of stuffs get to be very mind numbing.

#### Niteen Kalyan

##### New Member
The original post remains largely relevant. However, I believe there are things which people take into consideration before joining an MFE program. Especially since risk and auditing/ stress testing jobs have become the norm for FE grads I believe. Isn't the pay in these jobs good as compared to other graduate programs?

About the transferability of skills from FE to other industries: Since the coursework has a lot of overlap from courses like data science(which is a booming industry). And a few of the programs are same for both with different concentrations, e.g. Cornell ORIE

How easy or tough it is for an FE graduate to find a job in these industries?

Any opinions/ insights on this would be of great help

#### Daniel Duffy

##### C++ author, trainer
I guess the grass is always greener on the side, because I know plenty of mechanical engineers that are regretting their decisions of going to ME field. If you're really commited to the field of ME, and wants to do the coolest and latest and greatest, you'd have to go all the way to PhD. Most ME's that I know end up doing CAD and after awhile, that sorts of stuffs get to be very mind numbing.
CAD is a long way from computational finance.

#### Onegin

##### Well-Known Member
C++
The original post remains largely relevant. However, I believe there are things which people take into consideration before joining an MFE program. Especially since risk and auditing/ stress testing jobs have become the norm for FE grads I believe. Isn't the pay in these jobs good as compared to other graduate programs?

About the transferability of skills from FE to other industries: Since the coursework has a lot of overlap from courses like data science(which is a booming industry). And a few of the programs are same for both with different concentrations, e.g. Cornell ORIE

How easy or tough it is for an FE graduate to find a job in these industries?

Any opinions/ insights on this would be of great help
For schools, Cornell and UCB seem to be pivoting hard towards DS. CMU replaced a chunk of the StoCal program w/ Data Science, and allows overloading.

A few folks from CMU have gone to DS roles at the usual suspects that I know of.

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