U.S. Schools Expelled 8,000 Chinese Students

[dunzaicuntou]

As the one who completes education from primary school through college in China, I see nothing about the "culture of pervasive and endemic cheating". Cheating is considered as a HUGE shame in China. There are people cheating in China, like everywhere on the planet. But there is NO cheating culture. At least not in China.

I would not bother to argue with them...
Obviously there is no meaning in arguing with a shallow mind.

 

[dunzaicuntou]

Great dude...you dig it out pretty well to "unearth" this article...kudos..
Btw, why do u wanna talk about some under-developed, very very backward area in India?
Accept, in India, in backward areas, this is a grave problem...But, dun u think its a problem when even the top educated layer in China is resorting to such antics?
Anyways, best of luck to Chinese students, 8000 of them!

Check this out bro!
http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-c1-india-cheating-20140416-m-story.html#page=1
and this
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29950843

Looks like its been a while since last time you visited your country... I would miss my hometown bro!

 

[Pavlos Sakoglou]

I think this behavior is natural - yet not correct nor moral obviously - since the country has over 1.4 billion people and their competition to a better future/career/escape-from-daily-life cannot be greater. What do you do when the only way to stand out the crowd is to be excellent in everything consistently? You either work your ass 24/7 or fake it. It's pretty depressing if you think of it. I mean, what are the options? In any case, in the long run the truth preveils and the cheaters hit the bricks - either later in their jobs, or even before they graduate.

As for the top programs, the problem is that the admission process usually follows a specific pattern that can be copied and broken. "Do this and that and you will get admitted". Really?
In my opinion, the admission process must include interview and a series of psychometric questions in real time. Too ideal? Unrealistic? maybe, but as long as there is a standard, there will be a code to break it.

 

[Yike Lu]

I think we have the makings of QuantNet's first race war.

 

[CasanovaJ]

I think we have the makings of QuantNet's first race war.

No-- I actually managed to inadvertently accomplish that one about a month ago, and I can tell you it got a hell of a lot nastier than this one

As a quick extra data point, though, I can report that cheating in the MAFN program was absolutely rampant

 

[mhy]

No-- I actually managed to inadvertently accomplish that one about a month ago, and I can tell you it got a hell of a lot nastier than this one

As a quick extra data point, though, I can report that cheating in the MAFN program was absolutely rampant

I'm gonna shut the hell up until I graduate

 

[CasanovaJ]

I'm gonna shut the hell up until I graduate

The professors knew full-well it was going on, and the worst they ever did to anyone was give out zeros to the people who were dumb enough to submit blatantly identical work... never any expulsions or F's as final grades.

 

[bigbadwolf]

The professors knew full-well it was going on, and the worst they ever did to anyone was give out zeros to the people who were dumb enough to submit blatantly identical work... never any expulsions or F's as final grades.

I believe you. They want the money coming in. The 8,000 who got expelled must have been for absolutely egregious and flagrant cheating it was impossible to turn a blind eye to. As I said, the tip of the iceberg.

 

[JLevin]

I like cheaters. I like fakers. Because at the end of the day, they tend to know less and can be outshone (at least in the long run).

Not to say that universities should let this happen though... cheating undermines the integrity of an institution

 

[Simon.ZY]

Look at some of the MFE applicants from China with numerous internships and supposed experience. There isn't even really a infrastructure in China where interns will ever do meaningful work (though there are some exceptions), it's all about boosting their profile because they know American universities value it. For example, you can get an internship at Citibank in China if you parents have enough money in their account. You don't really do anything but you get a piece of paper saying you did an internship there. No schools have the resources to fact check everything on an application, but I am sure people are aware of it.

Well. I heard about that as well. But isn't it the same things here happening in the U.S? If your parents have lots of money and connects, you will be at a big advantage of getting a really good internship. I believe it is just universal.

 

[pingu]

Well. I heard about that as well. But isn't it the same things here happening in the U.S? If your parents have lots of money and connects, you will be at a big advantage of getting a really good internship. I believe it is just universal.

Nope. It doesn't happened that way in the US. You might get an internship but not a good one.

 

[Simon.ZY]

Nope. It doesn't happened that way in the US. You might get an internship but not a good one.

Yeah. But that will helps. I don't think there is a bad internship as long as people can learn something from it.

 

[Simon.ZY]

Since we are at Quantnet, let's do some stats.

Here is what I found out from: http://www.chinesedishes.tk/archives/29207

According to the thick kernel statistics, was expelled from the main reasons for 9:

academic performance difference (57.56%)

academic dishonesty (22.98%)

attendance problem (9.67%)

(3.87%)

misconduct

international student identity problem (2.96%)

violation of law (1.93%)

psychological problems (0.57%)

financial issues (0.23%)


Well, Academic dishonesty is a reason behind all these. But it is definitely not the primary factor here.
Honestly, academic dishonesty is a problem in China's education system. Some people decided to cheat for some reasons. But it is very biased to say it is a culture thing. I have been studying in China, Singapore and U.S. Based on my observations, there are a number of students cheating both in China and U.S, but not Singapore. I only saw one student cheated in Singapore in my 5 years there. And he immediately kicked out of the school as expected. That is the kind of punishment needed to solve this kind of problem. If we increase the risk of cheating by a large amount, rational people will unlikely to take that risk and choose to cheat to gain that relatively smaller profit.

 

[C S]

Well. I heard about that as well. But isn't it the same things here happening in the U.S? If your parents have lots of money and connects, you will be at a big advantage of getting a really good internship. I believe it is just universal.

It's not as if I've done a thorough polling of interns, but I've always seen in fact the opposite. There is even a significant pressure to make sure to give opportunities to students who have disadvantaged backgrounds and/or are from fairly lower-ranked (lower than top 100 for example) universities. I'm not aware of similar Chinese hiring practices.

 

[C S]

I would have to politely disagree, just based on the first hand evidence of it in international students from China at my university. There are literally pamphlets in Chinese (which I can read) distributed on notice boards and in classrooms and lecture theatres that 'guarantee distinction+' (B+) for essays at a good price, as well as services to sit in for students in an exam. There IS a culture of cheating, but how students themselves choose to interpret this is up to them.

I will qualify what I am saying by noting that cheating is not a phenomena exclusive to international students - it does happen with local students but much, much less.

I've heard similar things closer-hand. So I don't doubt these things happen. The problem is selection bias. The group of people that come to the US for expensive education, but aren't able to take full advantage of the opportunity, are a very particular group of people who have money to spend, but didn't have the forethought or time to prepare their kids to be well-educated. So I think selection bias should not be easily dismissed.

There's also another concern I have with these types of stories. When I see people telling these kinds of stories with glee, I get struck by a worry that these stories are fun to tell precisely because they support a tantalizing stereotype against a "foreign race". Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but every so often I'm reminded when I'm assumed to be a "foreigner" simply because I don't look like a "real" American.

 

[IntoDarkness]

Wats a "real" american? W? B? Jose? Asian? Natives?

 

[bigbadwolf]

Wats a "real" american? W? B? Jose? Asian? Natives?

John Wayne. Clint Eastwood. Marilyn Monroe. Ronald Reagan.

 

[Gavin L]

I've heard similar things closer-hand. So I don't doubt these things happen. The problem is selection bias. The group of people that come to the US for expensive education, but aren't able to take full advantage of the opportunity, are a very particular group of people who have money to spend, but didn't have the forethought or time to prepare their kids to be well-educated. So I think selection bias should not be easily dismissed.

There's also another concern I have with these types of stories. When I see people telling these kinds of stories with glee, I get struck by a worry that these stories are fun to tell precisely because they support a tantalizing stereotype against a "foreign race". Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but every so often I'm reminded when I'm assumed to be a "foreigner" simply because I don't look like a "real" American.

I do have similar sentiments, since I am an Australian born person with Chinese heritage, but it's not really a foreign 'race' issue, more a set of individuals (or groups) that engage in this type of behaviour knowingly.

 

[tostii]

Well. I heard about that as well. But isn't it the same things here happening in the U.S? If your parents have lots of money and connects, you will be at a big advantage of getting a really good internship. I believe it is just universal.

My point was that internships do not really exist in China. If the only requirement to get an internship at Citibank China is to have a balance of X amount, how can you believe that they are doing any real work? From what I understand, internships in China consist of getting a piece of paper saying you did the internship and maybe sitting there for a couple of weeks. Yet, look at resumes of Chinese students at some MFE programs. One of my classmates, who is currently attending a top MFE program, simply made up the internships on his resume.

There simply does not exist an infrastructure in China where students can get meaningful internships while in school; even if you are studying at a top university, opportunities are almost nonexistent. I would posit that internships only exist in China for the advantages they offer to students in graduate admissions. There is no other reason for them to exist because unlike the United States there is no need for some sort of a pipeline for full-time employees, human capital is something that China definitely does not lack. An interesting anecdote: a family friend's daughter got a M.S. at a very good school in China, couldn't find a job and opened a bubble tea cafe.

While I cannot really substantiate my claims, I believe my points are reasonable to consider. I am a second-generation Chinese-American and whenever I go back to China, people love discussing China's problems with my parents...lol

 

[CasanovaJ]

My point was that internships do not really exist in China. If the only requirement to get an internship at Citibank China is to have a balance of X amount, how can you believe that they are doing any real work? From what I understand, internships in China consist of getting a piece of paper saying you did the internship and maybe sitting there for a couple of weeks. Yet, look at resumes of Chinese students at some MFE programs. One of my classmates, who is currently attending a top MFE program, simply made up the internships on his resume.

There simply does not exist an infrastructure in China where students can get meaningful internships while in school; even if you are studying at a top university, opportunities are almost nonexistent. I would posit that internships only exist in China for the advantages they offer to students in graduate admissions. There is no other reason for them to exist because unlike the United States there is no need for some sort of a pipeline for full-time employees, human capital is something that China definitely does not lack. An interesting anecdote: a family friend's daughter got a M.S. at a very good school in China, couldn't find a job and opened a bubble tea cafe.

While I cannot really substantiate my claims, I believe my points are reasonable to consider. I am a second-generation Chinese-American and whenever I go back to China, people love discussing China's problems with my parents...lol

MAFN puts together a resume book, and literally every Chinese student in the program claimed to have internship experience either at the "Bank of China," the "National Bureau of Statistics," or at a different Chinese bank-- if it was all just completely made up, I'd actually consider it to be much more egregious cheating than copying hw assignments