- Joined
- 3/4/13
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You agree with me.
Prospective students should know the truth about the program.
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CMU MSCF CMU MSCF - NYC v/s PA
- Thread starter Shweta
- Start date
You agree with me.
Prospective students should know the truth about the program.
- Joined
- 2/26/13
- Messages
- 36
- Points
- 18
I agree with you that there will be frustrating times in the program. This is obvious. My point is that it's normal and a function of one's expectations, see my earlier post for details. Are you telling me that if you go through a difficult moment in life, you're going to start warning people about the dangers of life and they should stop living, lol?
Just because I had some frustrating moments in the program doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the program overall and appreciate the opportunity it gave me. I can honestly tell you that I wouldn't have been able to get the jobs I did without the MSCF degree. There are a ton of barriers to entry for a lot of these jobs and the MSCF degree will enhance your qualifications.
My guess is that you're having a tough time finding a job and you're looking for someone to blame and have decided to take it out on the program. Guess what, been there, done that. Obviously, you're not going to blame yourself so targeting your anger externally is expected.
I think you'll be singing a different tune once you graduate from the program and get a good job. Listen, I can't guarantee it will work out for you. I have no idea how fast the job market will recover and I have no idea about your innate abilities. But from experience, I've seen a ton of cases, mine included, where we look back and realize that the MSCF degree was really worth it in the end. So I say to you - just hang in there.
Obviously, this doesn't mean that things couldn't have worked out with MFE degrees from other schools but I would bet the farm that if you go to each of those programs, you'll find a disgruntled student there as well.
Just because I had some frustrating moments in the program doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the program overall and appreciate the opportunity it gave me. I can honestly tell you that I wouldn't have been able to get the jobs I did without the MSCF degree. There are a ton of barriers to entry for a lot of these jobs and the MSCF degree will enhance your qualifications.
My guess is that you're having a tough time finding a job and you're looking for someone to blame and have decided to take it out on the program. Guess what, been there, done that. Obviously, you're not going to blame yourself so targeting your anger externally is expected.
I think you'll be singing a different tune once you graduate from the program and get a good job. Listen, I can't guarantee it will work out for you. I have no idea how fast the job market will recover and I have no idea about your innate abilities. But from experience, I've seen a ton of cases, mine included, where we look back and realize that the MSCF degree was really worth it in the end. So I say to you - just hang in there.
Obviously, this doesn't mean that things couldn't have worked out with MFE degrees from other schools but I would bet the farm that if you go to each of those programs, you'll find a disgruntled student there as well.
- Joined
- 2/26/13
- Messages
- 36
- Points
- 18
Okay, I received some emails asking for specifics on sources of frustration and I will elaborate on a few here. I don't think it's anything that hasn't been mentioned before and my opinion is that everyone's case is different.
1. relevancy of courses vs. target career
The MSCF degree tries to offer a balanced approach and therefore their curriculum is very diverse. Diverse means you will have to take courses that you might not have voluntarily taken i.e. Sto Calc. If you want to become a trader, I don't think you'll need to know that dt*dt = 0. There will be some courses scattered throughout the curriculum that will probably be useless for your future career plans, but you'll still need to pass it. Some people have no interest in programming (I have no idea why you do a computational degree then), but there will be 4 classes in C++ that you'll have to get through.
2. condensed-nature of curriculum
The program is fast-paced. A lot of is covered in a short amount of time. Homeworks can take hours, if not days - and that's with collaboration. This means two things. The first is that it's going to be difficult to gain mastery of the subject material if you're juggling four classes and a job search. This isn't a PhD, you won't have the luxury of pondering over a problem for months and becoming an expert. The second is lack of free time. Some people get overwhelmed by the steady flow of assignments/exams/interviews and the stress gets to them. Typically, relief comes at the end of every mini and trust me, you'll be looking forward to every single one.
3. jobs
Everyone's favorite topic. You'll discover that not all MSCF students are judged equally, particularly when it comes to getting selected for interviews. People have different backgrounds ranging from education to work experience. There are a finite amount of interview slots, and interviewing every single person in the program is not possible. Some people will get selected for almost all interviews, usually those with prior work experience.
There are a lot of variables when it comes to getting a job and luck is a part of it. People get jobs at their own speed and ability. Some people get multiple job offers and some people are lucky to get one. I didn't have any real issues with job offers but I know a few classmates who were still looking in December. Times are changing and 100% placement before graduation might not be possible anymore. The majority of the people get offers before graduation but you're going to have to hustle to be under that category.
1. relevancy of courses vs. target career
The MSCF degree tries to offer a balanced approach and therefore their curriculum is very diverse. Diverse means you will have to take courses that you might not have voluntarily taken i.e. Sto Calc. If you want to become a trader, I don't think you'll need to know that dt*dt = 0. There will be some courses scattered throughout the curriculum that will probably be useless for your future career plans, but you'll still need to pass it. Some people have no interest in programming (I have no idea why you do a computational degree then), but there will be 4 classes in C++ that you'll have to get through.
2. condensed-nature of curriculum
The program is fast-paced. A lot of is covered in a short amount of time. Homeworks can take hours, if not days - and that's with collaboration. This means two things. The first is that it's going to be difficult to gain mastery of the subject material if you're juggling four classes and a job search. This isn't a PhD, you won't have the luxury of pondering over a problem for months and becoming an expert. The second is lack of free time. Some people get overwhelmed by the steady flow of assignments/exams/interviews and the stress gets to them. Typically, relief comes at the end of every mini and trust me, you'll be looking forward to every single one.
3. jobs
Everyone's favorite topic. You'll discover that not all MSCF students are judged equally, particularly when it comes to getting selected for interviews. People have different backgrounds ranging from education to work experience. There are a finite amount of interview slots, and interviewing every single person in the program is not possible. Some people will get selected for almost all interviews, usually those with prior work experience.
There are a lot of variables when it comes to getting a job and luck is a part of it. People get jobs at their own speed and ability. Some people get multiple job offers and some people are lucky to get one. I didn't have any real issues with job offers but I know a few classmates who were still looking in December. Times are changing and 100% placement before graduation might not be possible anymore. The majority of the people get offers before graduation but you're going to have to hustle to be under that category.
- Joined
- 3/4/13
- Messages
- 30
- Points
- 18
"Been there, done that" means you experienced all these things, which means this is not uncommon.
I find this hard to believe. What did you enjoy about the program?
How about Sto Cal 2 and ADM? These classes are the reason people fail out of the program. What courses are left? What courses did you enjoy?
This is a good one. If we can't "gain mastery of the subject material" then what are we here for?
- Joined
- 2/26/13
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- 36
- Points
- 18
My point is frustration comes with the territory. If you were looking for a smooth ride, that doesn't exist anywhere, in any program.
I met some good people in the program, made some life-long friends. Program was fast-paced but I enjoyed the challenge. You gain exposure to a lot of different areas and some of it does stick.
People fail for a variety of reasons, namely two.
1 - Inadequate preparation (you spent mini's copying hw off your friends and focused on job search, had rude awakening come finals time).
2 - Quant skills not strong enough - (overwhelmingly, it's people with non-science backgrounds i.e. finance, accounting, etc that struggle. I believe the program could do a better job with admissions standards but it's not always clear-cut. There are the occasional few that look good on paper but quant isn't their calling. My opinion is that if you've got the brains, you will find a way to pass these programs, regardless of your background.
If you want mastery of the subject material, go do a PhD. Mostly, you're there to learn the basics, put the stamp on your resume, and gain access to an exclusive network. The question you need to ask is do you want to be specialized in one area or knowledgeable in many areas - there are always trade-offs.
I met some good people in the program, made some life-long friends. Program was fast-paced but I enjoyed the challenge. You gain exposure to a lot of different areas and some of it does stick.
People fail for a variety of reasons, namely two.
1 - Inadequate preparation (you spent mini's copying hw off your friends and focused on job search, had rude awakening come finals time).
2 - Quant skills not strong enough - (overwhelmingly, it's people with non-science backgrounds i.e. finance, accounting, etc that struggle. I believe the program could do a better job with admissions standards but it's not always clear-cut. There are the occasional few that look good on paper but quant isn't their calling. My opinion is that if you've got the brains, you will find a way to pass these programs, regardless of your background.
If you want mastery of the subject material, go do a PhD. Mostly, you're there to learn the basics, put the stamp on your resume, and gain access to an exclusive network. The question you need to ask is do you want to be specialized in one area or knowledgeable in many areas - there are always trade-offs.
- Joined
- 5/2/06
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What happens to those that fail out of the program that are international students? I hear about people who don't graduate but vast majority of them are part-time/US resident students, rarely F-1 students.
Since if they fail out of the program, they will be come out of status on their visa, does the program try to avoid this by not failing them?
- Joined
- 3/4/13
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- 30
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- 18
I don't know.
- Joined
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So even though you are admitted to the program, your quant skills may not be strong enough. Would you say its uncommon to fail an exam in the program? Would you say its common that an admitted student's quant skills aren't strong enough?
But you said students shouldn't waste their time in a 3 hour lecture.
- Joined
- 2/26/13
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- 36
- Points
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I can only speak for when I was there, no idea about the profiles of your particular class. We are talking about different things. It is very common for there to be people who fail an exam, happens every year. However, the number of people who do are in the minority. Keep in mind there are make-up exams as well and most people pass the makeup and scrape by, the majority pass. If you're trying to imply that half the class failed, that simply didn't happen.
It is not common for someone with weak quant skills to be admitted but it does happen. People can look good on paper and appear to have "strong" quant skills but that doesn't mean they do. We both know 800 on GRE doesn't mean anything. Of the people who I saw struggle in the program, virtually all came from business-oriented backgrounds. Why were they let in? They have impressive work experience and a good academic background. And a lot of them work hard and DO survive the program. But it's a steep learning curve and some can't hack it. Some haven't been in school since undergraduate school, so that's another possibility.
Blowing off a lecture doesn't mean you don't do the work. Watch it online, borrow classmate's notes, etc... It's an exercise in time management. If you have an interview tomorrow, don't you think it would be optimal to skip the lecture tonight and worry about it later?
I give up.- Joined
- 5/24/10
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- Joined
- 3/4/13
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- 30
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I think 20-30% can be considered a minority. Have you ever been to an MSCF townhall meeting? Your "enjoyment" would be the minority.
What's not perfect? Why does MSCF provide large positive NAV? What is NAV?
mfegrad
CMU MSCF Alum
- Joined
- 3/10/11
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- 332
- Points
- 53
NAV wouldn't be the "word" i'd have used, but the fact that you don't know what it is is sort of telling, no?
- Joined
- 3/4/13
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- 30
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- 18
This is what you enjoyed about the program? These are the same things as your frustrations to the program.
- Joined
- 3/4/13
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That's my point. It makes no sense in this context.
- Joined
- 5/24/10
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unhappy_mscf typo, it should be "NPV", thanks
- Joined
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what do you know then? Besides quoting and put question mark? And let us know how frustrated and how unhappy you are
- Joined
- 2/26/13
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- 36
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Lol alright, it's obvious you are firmly entrenched in your hatred toward MSCF. I'm not going to offer advice to someone who doesn't want it. If you don't want to listen to someone who's been in your shoes and is telling you there's better days ahead, then that's your prerogative.
- Joined
- 12/25/11
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- 16
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unhappy_mscf: It seems that you are clearly frustrated with the MSCF program. What is that you did not like about the program? If you were expecting to sail through the MFE programs without effort and get a fat pay check at the end of the course, then clearly you were misinformed about the MSCF program.
I am current student at the MSCF program and I have absolutely loved every moment in the course. Agreed, the coursework is hectic, a lot is thrown at you in a short span of time and to add to that the current markets are unfavourable. Becoming a quant in the current scenario is very demanding and i don't see it becoming any easier in the years to come. If you were to compete with the Phd's you absolutely need such a rigorous curriculum. The professors here are very helpful and willing to provide help way beyond the classroom. There are various career paths that you can choose after the MFE and not all of them may require the course work we go through. But you are not expected to excel in all the course work either! You pick what profile you want to end up in and concentrate on ace-ing the corresponding field while managing to get through the exams.
Some of the exams are hard, but i never felt that getting an B- was impossible in any of the courses. The grading is very very lenient, you get 2 attempts at the final in every course and the assignments and course notes we get is self sufficient.
The career services that you get at MSCF are world class. They always are willing to evaluate you, help you and guide you if you choose to put in the efforts. Given this years even worse situation, we have had more companies visit us during the OCR than last year. There has been a constant effort from their side to get the students placed, but the markets are not rosy.
The MSCF program has helped me in more ways than imaginable. It is a training ground for tougher situations that come up in the industry. Having interviewed for most of the Quant roles both on Buy side and Sell side this year, I never felt that we had any significant shortcomings from this program. In a market where the firms selection ratios are close to 1:50, there are a lot of factors beyond your control if you don't end up with a good job. This has nothing to do with the MSCF program and it cannot be blamed. If you expect to spend 80k on the program and expect a pay check of 100k without effort -- Such an arbitrage doesn't exist.
I am not a big fan of writing very lengthy mails, but i couldn't stop myself after reading stuff being posted here given my love for the MSCF program. I wish you good luck unhappy_mscf with what ever you are pursuing as a career.
MSCF ROCKS!! \m/
I am current student at the MSCF program and I have absolutely loved every moment in the course. Agreed, the coursework is hectic, a lot is thrown at you in a short span of time and to add to that the current markets are unfavourable. Becoming a quant in the current scenario is very demanding and i don't see it becoming any easier in the years to come. If you were to compete with the Phd's you absolutely need such a rigorous curriculum. The professors here are very helpful and willing to provide help way beyond the classroom. There are various career paths that you can choose after the MFE and not all of them may require the course work we go through. But you are not expected to excel in all the course work either! You pick what profile you want to end up in and concentrate on ace-ing the corresponding field while managing to get through the exams.
Some of the exams are hard, but i never felt that getting an B- was impossible in any of the courses. The grading is very very lenient, you get 2 attempts at the final in every course and the assignments and course notes we get is self sufficient.
The career services that you get at MSCF are world class. They always are willing to evaluate you, help you and guide you if you choose to put in the efforts. Given this years even worse situation, we have had more companies visit us during the OCR than last year. There has been a constant effort from their side to get the students placed, but the markets are not rosy.
The MSCF program has helped me in more ways than imaginable. It is a training ground for tougher situations that come up in the industry. Having interviewed for most of the Quant roles both on Buy side and Sell side this year, I never felt that we had any significant shortcomings from this program. In a market where the firms selection ratios are close to 1:50, there are a lot of factors beyond your control if you don't end up with a good job. This has nothing to do with the MSCF program and it cannot be blamed. If you expect to spend 80k on the program and expect a pay check of 100k without effort -- Such an arbitrage doesn't exist.
I am not a big fan of writing very lengthy mails, but i couldn't stop myself after reading stuff being posted here given my love for the MSCF program. I wish you good luck unhappy_mscf with what ever you are pursuing as a career.
MSCF ROCKS!! \m/