Legalize illegal immigration, YES or NO

I am frequently scathing of the racist jerks in Homeland Security, and although some are smart and dedicated, and put their lives on the line for fat old gits like me for far too little pay, the fact is that the system won't be run by smart people. The only smart people involved in the immigration system are the lobbyists for firms who make serious money out of the mess.

The salaries are low. In addition, bureaucratic inertia and the weight of rules and regulations is such as to drive away people of intelligence. And the racial profiling and general racial bias is coming from the top: blaming individuals in the DHS is akin to blaming Abu Ghraib on a bunch of half-wit non-coms (everyone with half a brain knows the nods and winks were coming all the way from the top).

Ask yourself why (for instance) Irish people get such an easy ride through the immigration process ? It's because of institutional racism that starts at the immigration gates and goes all the way up to Congress. The fact that I personally would benefit from such as system because to my shame I have Irish ancestry, does not warm me to it.

The country was designed for whites from the get-go: hence the genocide of native Americans. Hence why in the Mexican-American war American forces didn't invade Mexico City: it was felt that incorporating so much of Mexico (i.e., in addition to Arizona, New Mexico, etc.) went against the ethos of the US being a "white" country. Until 1965 the quotas were 120,000 from Europe and 170,000 from the rest of the world: clearly biased in favor of people from Europe. The 1965 immigration act changed all that.

No one seems to be judging possible new systems, or even the old one on what comes out the other end. Partly because crazies like the Tea Party want a whites-only system, whose position differs only from organised labor in which set of non-whites they are prejudiced against.

The Europeans are no different in this regard but no-one calls them crazies.

A good test for any powert you are granting the government, is to assume that within a few years it will be in the hands of the people you don't want to have this power. There is a serious chance that bimbo Palin will be the next President. You may be OK about that, but using history as a guide Obama's successor may be someone far to the left of him, or Jon Stewart, who can tell ?

No, Palin is out. The poll numbers indicate she cannot be a serious candidate. Nor will the smart money back her. She is stupid even by the dismal standards of George W. Bush and Dan Quayle.
 
BigBadwolf says "The Europeans are no different in this regard but no-one calls them crazies."

It depends of course who you call "Europeans". Britain is part of the European Union, which art the time of writing had not yet fallen apart.

The Europeans are spitting blood over the UK's immigration policy which has for a long time let in smart coloured people. Both banking and the healthcare system would collapse tomorrow if they were sent home. Germany is of course the most hostile to Britain's relatively colour-blind immigration policy, but the French are none too happy either.

Of course it's not 100% popular in Britain either, and the dimwit arts graduates in the new government want to pander to this. So we have the entertaining spectacle of right wing bankers arguing with a right wing government for the rights of coloured people.

BBW : The poll numbers indicate she cannot be a serious candidate.
I note you use the present tense, but it would not change much for this to change. If for instance the US went back into recession.

BBW: Nor will the smart money back her
I wasn't saying "smart", America has one of the highest illiteracy rates in the developed world, and thus about the highest rate of religious observance. The Tea party is not short of money at all.

Also, the US electoral system is highly polarizing towards candidates that are favoured by activists. The Tea party are a huge obsessive gang of activists, enough to swamp anything in their path. That may go up or down of course in the next year, but my bet is on support going up.

The Tea party is a "fundamentalist" outfit in the sense that they want to pursue ideals without compromise or as they would see it, becoming part of the Washington elite. That means anyone who has actual experience of anything is necessarily tainted in their eyes. Palin can thus remain ideologically pure, and since her ideology is anything she happens to say she has great freedom of action.
I perceive a huge momentum behind anti-incumbency from all sides. The Republicans were in office when this mess was caused, and most people aren't that convinced that the Democrats have actually done much to help and the debt / inflation scares them.

Since there is now legislative deadlock, the already low quality of US government can be expected to go down still further.
Thus people in the centre who just want the US to work properly, not Tea Partygoers or unions or other interest groups will look more favourably on people the less they are like the current incumbents.
It's hard to see anyone less like a well educated, smart president than Sarah Palin.
 
I note you use the present tense, but it would not change much for this to change. If for instance the US went back into recession.

Now was it GWB who said a week or so back that she was not qualified to be president? She has no backing anywhere. Even among the most racist and nationalistic groups she is considered a featherhead with neither ideas nor solutions. Granted, a contemporary US president is largely a figurehead, a marionette who dances to the tune of those who backed him and thus own him. But even such marionettes need a modicum of intelligence. She lacks it.

If you can endure it, listen to this vapid woman speaking. There ain't nothin' there. It's all slogans, banal cliches. Even apparatchiks like GWB and Obama have some basic intelligence. But time will decide whether my prognosis is correct.

The US, incidentally, is not out of its economic quagmire, which is structural in nature, and which seems to involve a tectonic shift in economic power to Asia. For tens of millions of Americans there has been no "recovery" (though in some narrow statistical sense, the country may be out of "recession").

I wasn't saying "smart", America has one of the highest illiteracy rates in the developed world, and thus about the highest rate of religious observance. The Tea party is not short of money at all.

Without financial backing a candidate -- whether for Congress, Senate, or the Oval Office -- is dead. The sums of money need for successful campaigns have increased by orders of magnitude from, say, fifty years ago. The voters are needed just to dance to the tune of political pied pipers who are funded by an oligarchy. That is incidentally why no candidate with progressive leanings can win office. It's a pay-to-play political system in which those who back candidates expect high returns on their investments. See politics as a business in the US, where voters -- the stupider the better -- are coralled at election time and offered narrow "choices." In this sense, as Tom Ferguson points out in his book "The Golden Rule," big money decides who the candidates are going to be and what agenda is going to be presented to the electorate.

The Tea Party is backed by billionaires with their own reactionary agenda. Otherwise it is nothing, all smoke and mirrors, no substance, no ideology (except slogans of "smaller government"). If it ever by some miracle becomes more than that (i.e., a media-concocted spectacle) it will be as a reactionary faction of a reactionary Republican party.

Also, the US electoral system is highly polarizing towards candidates that are favoured by activists. The Tea party are a huge obsessive gang of activists, enough to swamp anything in their path. That may go up or down of course in the next year, but my bet is on support going up.

Yes, the system perhaps is polarising a bit, just as it did in the dying days of Weimar, when the only two parties in business became the Communists and the Nazis. But the Tea Partiers are not Nazis, who were a serious lot, and who under people like Hitler and Strasser had some ideas about the economy, society, and foreign policy.

The Tea party is a "fundamentalist" outfit in the sense that they want to pursue ideals without compromise or as they would see it, becoming part of the Washington elite. That means anyone who has actual experience of anything is necessarily tainted in their eyes. Palin can thus remain ideologically pure, and since her ideology is anything she happens to say she has great freedom of action.

I've heard this refrain for decades. When Carter and Reagan ran their campaigns it was as "outsiders." Whether it will still wash is something I'm not clear about.

I perceive a huge momentum behind anti-incumbency from all sides. The Republicans were in office when this mess was caused, and most people aren't that convinced that the Democrats have actually done much to help and the debt / inflation scares them.

In these difficult times, people's attention is focused on the real differences between the two parties. And frankly there isn't much to choose between.

Anyway, this is drifting off topic from immigration. Mea culpa. During hard times attitudes towards immigration tend to harden. That is happening in the US, though it is nowhere close to the levels of Germany, France, and (now) Britain. In Germany just look at the reception Thilo Sarrazin's statements have received ....
 
BBW, I am not sure that we are disagreeing, I agree that there are things living under my fridge that are better equipped to be president, but a process that elects GW Bush twice may well screw up again.
If she enters, and avoids any spectacular blow ups, I would give her easily better than 50/50 of being the Republican candidate. The interesting variable would be her running mate, can you even guess who that might be ?

I agree also that most candidates go for the "outsider" tag, even McCain, but few people are as outside Washington as Palin, except maybe Vladimir Putin.

But yes, back to immigration, the US would be foolish to move from a policy that has served it so well for literally centuries. If smart people want to come to your country and work there, you'd be a fool not to let them.
 
If she enters, and avoids any spectacular blow ups, I would give her easily better than 50/50 of being the Republican candidate. The interesting variable would be her running mate, can you even guess who that might be?

Forrest Gump. Sorry, that's an old one dating back to when people were wondering who Dan Quayle's running mate was going to be.

You mentioned how ill-educated American are in a previous post. This unfortunately puts constraints on the kind of candidates who are vetted and chosen. In contrast, the only British prime minister I can think of who wasn't Oxbridge is John Major (Brown went to Edinburgh, which is roughly equivalent). Churchill, Macmillan, Eden, Wilson, Heath, Callaghan, Thatcher, Blair, Cameron were all Oxbridge. I suspect the French premiers have had equivalent backgrounds. In the USA for a politician to be seen as an intellectual is damaging and can be fatal to prospects. The bright side is that contemporary American politicians are merely glorified errand boys and girls on behalf of those who really run the country.

But yes, back to immigration, the US would be foolish to move from a policy that has served it so well for literally centuries. If smart people want to come to your country and work there, you'd be a fool not to let them.

It depends on who you talk to. From capital's point of view it's great and there is unrelenting pressure from capital to not place hurdles or quotas on immigration. Labor's point of view differs. At the moment no authentic populist movement has emerged. Maybe it never will. The Tea Partiers are "led" by pied pipers like Palin, Beck, and Limbaugh, whose tune is determined by the Koch brothers, Murdoch, etc.
 
The tea party is not against immigration, it is against ILLEGAL immigration. This issue is twisted non stop in the news here. I fail to see the issue people have. Mexico has stringent illegal immigrant laws for its southern boarder, but it is somehow wrong for us to have laws for ours.

I also take offense at the implication that a high level of religious observation is some how indicative of low intelligence. Just because someone hold religious beliefs does not make them uneducated. There is also a significant range between people who are fanatically faith based and people who are religious, but hold scientific view points. Try and be a little more unbiased or accepting of various beliefs in your statements.

The USA has horrible literacy rates? How so? I've seen 99% reported by the CIA and the UN and 97% reported elsewhere. Either way those are extremely high numbers. The USA tends to be a destination for a lot of very poor or desperate people so it make take a little longer to build up their literacy abilities.

The Tea Party is not lead anymore than the liberals and other groups are lead. A lot of people are sick and tired of the way things are and the tea party is a result. The movement is pretty new and is slowly forming. The basic ideals are smaller government, less intrusion and lower taxes. Basically the core of the Republican party that has been long lost and hopefully will be found very soon.
 
I find the whole premise of this thread to be a giant oxymoron.

Legalize illegal immigration... so all immigration would be legal? So we are just opening up the US border completely?

In any case, what should be a cut and dried issue of legality is much complicated by...
1) A huge border to police.
2) Our reliance on illegal immigrant labor.
3) First, second, third etc generation illegal immigrants.
4) Real value add vs value taken from the economy.
5) Every case being different.
 
@bigbadwolf: Churchill did not go to university at all, and compared to most PMs was almost uneducated, which given that he was eligible for a US passport should not shock you.
He did however have a Cambridge college named after him, a rare honour shared by one Jesus of Nazareth.

Technically Margaret Thatcher didn't go to Oxford either. As a woman, when Britain was still at that point nominally a Christian country, her options were highly constrained. So she studied Chemistry in Oxford not at Oxford.

The tea party is not against immigration, it is against ILLEGAL immigration. This issue is twisted non stop in the news here. I fail to see the issue people have. Mexico has stringent illegal immigrant laws for its southern boarder, but it is somehow wrong for us to have laws for ours.

I also take offense at the implication that a high level of religious observation is some how indicative of low intelligence. Just because someone hold religious beliefs does not make them uneducated. There is also a significant range between people who are fanatically faith based and people who are religious, but hold scientific view points. Try and be a little more unbiased or accepting of various beliefs in your statements.

Anthony: "The USA has horrible literacy rates? How so? I've seen 99% reported by the CIA"
The CIA also reported that East Germany had the same GDP per head as West Germany. I'd believe Fox News before a report from the CIA on national capability. The term you want to google on is functional literacy.

The Tea Party is not lead anymore than the liberals and other groups are lead.
That's a valid point, in some ways Jon Stewart is one of the most powerful men in America. In other ways he isn't the most powerful man in his building.

I agree with the point that many Tea party people are against illegal immigration, but that is not the same as being colour blind. George W. Bush was a strong supporter of a path to citizenship for mostly Hispanic illegals, and that was stopped by naked racism from both left and right. Aside from gays, GWB's social attitudes actually put him nearer the Democrats than the Tea party. Recall his medical support for victims of AIDS, and serious aid to Africa.

The laws favour white people, so implicitly anyone supporting them favours the mix of immigrants they sanction. That does not of itself make them racists of course, but it does not make them liberals.

I of course have a problem with the American use of the word "liberal" equated to socialist. My wife (who did Politics at Oxford) tells me I'm a 19th century liberal, (I prefer the term classical liberal). The Tea party is strongly in favour of big government when it suits them. The largest socialist healthcare programme in the world is run for Veterans and for various people who haved worked for the US government. The British Army has long managed to have gays in the military without problems and Tony Blair legalized gay marriage years ago. TP people are very up for government getting into people's bedrooms and big government if it's big government they like.

As a classical liberal I do not respect gay people, black culture, or feminist poetry, I just don't feel that I have a right to interfere, nor the government on my behalf. Same with religion, I have contempt for faith, but as long as the rap music doesn't wake me up, and I am not forced to stop and listen to religious or feminist rantings it's not my problem.

Tea party people aren't into "freedom". They are into freedom for them. The test of any doctrine is how it deals with people you don't like. Any fool can be nice to people on the same side.
 
@bigbadwolf: Churchill did not go to university at all, and compared to most PMs was almost uneducated, which given that he was eligible for a US passport should not shock you.

Right you are. I thought he earnt third-class honours at Oxbridge but I see I was mistaken:

After Churchill left Harrow in 1893, he applied to attend the Royal Military College, Sandhurst. It took three attempts before he passed the entrance exam; he applied for cavalry rather than infantry because the grade requirement was lower and did not require him to learn mathematics, which he disliked.

For the record, James Callaghan didn't go to Oxbridge either.
 
As a classical liberal I do not respect gay people, black culture, or feminist poetry, I just don't feel that I have a right to interfere, nor the government on my behalf. Same with religion, I have contempt for faith, but as long as the rap music doesn't wake me up, and I am not forced to stop and listen to religious or feminist rantings it's not my problem.
Also known as a modern libertarian, methinks. I approve.
 
Yeah, I really wish more people would wake up and embrace libertarianism. I don't give a shit what other people do as long as it does not involve me or another unwilling 3rd party.
 
@euroazn, the Libertarian label suffers from a similar, but opposite problem to liberal. Many people I see who identify themselves as a libertarian are also American nationalists which I see as a bit of a contradiction.

One way of pigeonholing people is by what they read. I've had a subscription to the Economist for more than 25 years, read quite a lot of SciFi and Terry Prachett who was once kind enough to refer to one of my pieces as "bollocks, but bollocks of a superior kind".
The SF/TP view is that compared to the variety of the universe (real or imagined), the racial differences of people are lost in the background noise, which is what many would call a liberal view point.
In most SF from Star Trek through Asimov, Clarke to Egan and Baxter the recurring lesson is that you advance or die. That's an evolutionary argument, not a cultural one. If you choose to cling to false truths, then you will get screwed over. That may not be morally right, but the evidence amongst human cultures is quite overwhelming.

That's why I am rarely impressed by 'traditional values' especially when most 'traditions' are rarely all that old, and often serve to prop up a decaying elite. in Larry Niven's SF, literary criticism is a forbidden activity, because the power that be don't want people discovering from old writings that the world used to be very different to how it had become.

Almost unique to the USA is "homeschooling" a process by which poorly educated people impart heavily censored and biased subsets of their own ignorance to children with the purpose of excluding other influences. The widespread nature of this shit is a sign of a sick culture, again we see this in SF, called "ignorance cults" by Greg Egan, but in other works as well.

Mrs. DCFC and I can between use teach most subjects to at least age 18, and one of our nannies is even a FIFA qualified referee, but because we aren't dimwit evangelicals realise that kids need to be exposed to influences that we do not approve of. Of course since some of that is Christian, I have found myself doing remedial theology, something I had never expected to do. Few, if any Christians born after 1970 seem to exhibit an adequate understanding of their own faith. This started when my son's religious education teacher had somehow convinced herself that "God is blue", and explained this to her class.

You should know that religious education is compulsory in all British schools. This in a nation where a greater % of the population will take part in lesbian sex in any given week than attend church. Someone should tell this to the religious types who want to bring prayer into US schools.
 
If she enters, and avoids any spectacular blow ups, I would give her easily better than 50/50 of being the Republican candidate.

Here is Palin claiming the USA has to back its North Korean allies.

She knew nothing. She had to be taken through World War I, World War II, the Cold War, and Palin was not aware there was a difference between North and South Korea. She continued to insist that Iraq was behind 9/11; and when her son was being sent off to Iraq, she couldn’t describe who we were fighting.

She and the Tea Partiers were meant for each other. Soberly speaking, I should say "she and the US electorate": GWB was no better. But since the US president is mostly a marionette these days, a mass media hologram, it probably doesn't matter.

If Caligula was about to appoint his horse as Consul, I don't see why Palin can't be president.
 
1) Liberty is the back bone of the USA. I see no issue with allowing people the right to do as they please as long as it effects themselves. It would make sense that people who strongly believe in liberty would be nationalistic.

2) The continued bashing of the tea party is rather pathetic. People are sick of the ever expanding government and want to do something about it. A few fringe elements are racists or extremists. These people can be found in every party.

What makes me laugh is that people complain about the Dems or the Republicans not doing anything or moving away from their ideals. So people finally get sick and tired and decide that they are going to do something about it. Now people are trying to marginalize them.

Also, calling Tea Partier's stupid or unrealistic is to ignore their demographics. They tend to be older, educated and middle class. These people are not fools.

3) Domini - I consider you to be an extremely intelligent fellow. Sometimes you can be a little harsh and judgmental. People home school for a variety of reasons, not always religious. Those who do home school are required to submit reports to the school and meet specific benchmarks. You simply cannot take a kid out of school and have him watch TV all day.

I was "home schooled" in a non religious sense. I also started at college at 15 and am finishing my 2nd masters degree. Please do not paint everyone with such a broad brush, you are better than that.



Illegal immigration is a serious issue in the USA. The problem is people do not want to hear the world ILLEGAL. The USA has been and always will be a place where people from all over the world are welcome.

The issue we have is unregulated immigration from Mexico. When we have unemployment at 9.6% (much higher in reality) I think it is unfair to the recent immigrants who came here legally as well as the un skilled workers who are hear now as well as the tax payers who are over stretched to continue to allow people to just come over.

I completely understand people are looking for a better life, but Mexico is not the worst place on earth. We, as a nation, have the right to regulate and limit the amount of people who come into this country. We also need to make sure lawful individuals are coming here.

On top of all this, think about how many Indian and Chinese people who go through an endless amount of visa and immigration paperwork to come to this country. If only they resided to the south of us they could just walk across the boarder and demand full rights.


I say put up a fence and give Mexicans an expedited immigration process since we have such a close relationship with their country. This will allow us to make sure the right people are being let in and it will also give Mexicans a proper way to becoming legal residents here.

The issue of amnesty should not be dealt with until we can stem the tide of illegal immigrants. No sense in making illegals citizens if tomorrow more people illegally come here. I think that is common sense.
 
BOSTON – Immigrant advocates have staged sit-ins, held rallies and gone on hunger strikes in recent days in an 11th hour bid to get Congress to pass legislation that would give illegal immigrants a pathway to citizenship by going to college or serving in the military.

As Congress gets closers to a possible vote on the bill, called the DREAM Act, college-aged illegal immigrants are literally shedding blood for the cause.

On Friday, a group of illegal immigrant college students, or "DREAMers" as they called themselves, donated blood at Harvard University and other colleges. The students said they wanted to show the rest of the country that they are ready to perform community service and are good citizens, even if they don't have U.S. citizenship.

In addition to donating blood, student immigrants are volunteering at homeless shelters and donating turkeys at holiday food drives. Orozco said one group in Kentucky held a food drive outside a congressman's office and then went to donate blood next door.
"This is not the first time I'm donating," said Elizabeth Ponce, 20, who gave blood at Harvard. "It probably won't be the last."

U.S. Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., said the students "are reminding everyone what it really means to be an American."
"Only three in a hundred Americans will ever donate blood despite the need, but these kids are living out the real full measure of citizenship," he said. "They're living, breathing testimony of the importance of passing the DREAM Act."

Marie Parente, a former Massachusetts state representative who opposed efforts to give the state's illegal immigrants in-state tuition, said the blood donation drive did little to change her opinion that the DREAM Act was wrong. She compared illegal immigrants donating blood to win sympathy with serial killers donating blood to get off death row.

"What if a guy on death row says 'I'll give you a pint of blood for the rest of my life ... just get me out of here'?" said Parente, 82, of Milford. "It's baseless."

Orozco said illegal immigrant students have nothing in common with criminals and the immigrants are just seeking to go to college or join the military.
"Our blood is just as good as other people's blood," said Orozco.
Immigrant students give blood to show citizenship - Yahoo! News
 
The vote by Senate on Saturday to block a bill to grant legal status to hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrant students was a painful setback to an emerging movement of young immigrants and also appeared to leave the immigration policy of the Obama administration, which has supported the bill and the movement, in disarray.

The bill, known as the Dream Act, gained 55 votes in favor with 41 against, a tally that fell short of the 60 votes needed to bring it to the floor for debate. Five Democrats broke ranks to vote against the bill while only three Republicans voted for it. The defeat in the Senate came after the House of Representatives passed the bill last week.

Immigration Vote Leaves Obama Policy in Disarray - NYTimes.com

19dream2-popup.jpg
 
It doesn't help that the US is paranoid restrictive on those who can give blood though. For example I can't give blood because I was resident in the UK during the mad cow disease scare.
Surely if CJD was that bad half of Britain would be dead, but as far as I am aware only a handful of people ever developed the disease. And I would presume the blood could be screened for this, just like for Hep and HIV?

So whilst I am willing to give blood, no can do.

"Only three in a hundred Americans will ever donate blood despite the need, but these kids are living out the real full measure of citizenship," he said. "
 
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