Legalize illegal immigration, YES or NO

[Abdel]

You are taking this off topic.... From your tone, it seems you're suggesting that illegals sit on their hands all day doing nothing and expecting handouts.

All I'm saying is:

If they study and have good grades, then they won't need to be illegals.

And there is NO excuses in 2011 not to go to school.

So they have to ASSUME their life choices.

 

[alain]

All I'm saying is:

If they study and have good grades, then they won't need to be illegals.

And there is NO excuses in 2011 not to go to school.

So they have to ASSUME their life choices.

Did you read what atreides posted? it doesn't matter if you study and have good grades. The kids that grew up in this country are in line to be deported unless that law was passed.

 

[Anthony DeAngelis]

The true blame lay with the government which allows illegal immigration to thrive. An enforced boarder and active enforcement would make it difficult for people to illegally enter this country.

As for things being unfair to the children of illegals, we need to be honest about the fiscal situation in this country. We are being unfair to people who are legal citizens in favor of not being fair to illegal citizens. Life is inherently unfair. Those who build their lives on illegality and breaking the rules are the ones who hurt their children, not the government or its law abiding citizens.

 

[alain]

The true blame lay with the government which allows illegal immigration to thrive. An enforced boarder and active enforcement would make it difficult for people to illegally enter this country.

As for things being unfair to the children of illegals, we need to be honest about the fiscal situation in this country. We are being unfair to people who are legal citizens in favor of not being fair to illegal citizens. Life is inherently unfair. Those who build their lives on illegality and breaking the rules are the ones who hurt their children, not the government or its law abiding citizens.

Still, it's not the kids fault. If your parents commit a crime and have to do jail time, do you think the government should put you in jail as well?

 

[Anthony DeAngelis]

I fail to see how not being an American is the same as jail. Many people travel to Mexico for business and vacation. We are not talking about Somalia here.

I would be even willing to allow illegal immigrants to go to US universities, but when a nearly bankrupt state is using tax payer funds to facilitate illegal immigrant higher education I cry foul.

 

[DominiConnor]

I think we need to drop the "fairness" word.

These people are in the USA, the question for the government is what is best to do about that for the USA.

America has a catastrophic skills shortage and a large % of its high crime rate is from uneducated people. It is an observed fact that a disproportionate % of its most useful citizens from combat troops to top scientists come from 1st generation immigrants.

It seems bizarrely irrational to increase the number of people who are outside "the system". Kids whose parent caused them to be "illegals" may turn out to be assets or liabilities, I'd pick assets myself.

A state educates its young to have a next generation who can do useful stuff. Since the correlation between parental wealth and intelligence for kids is not that great, it follows that the optimal education to apply to a young person in the USA is not really a function of whether the parents are illegals working in a field or a trader at Goldmans. Thus it is in the interests of the republic to pay for education for these people.

Some aren't citizens, like I'm supposed to be impressed by that.
Citizenship is a legal construct whose purpose is to make the USA a better country, and the rules for that should be judged on the same basis as things like taxation.

It is believed by many that the tax laws in the USA discourages some people from being as economically useful as they could.
Couched in those terms it is something that people of most political persuasions would see as obviously true.

So how is it different from a set of laws that stop people being so useful just because it is called "citizenship" ?

Note that I am not saying here that breaking bad laws is a good thing, I'm saying that bad laws hurt a country.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

As an immigrant, I absolutely agree with Mr. Connor.

However, I absolutely agree with Abdel as well in terms of parental sacrifice and coming here legally. It isn't the immigration I think we're all against--it's the illegal.

America was and continues to be built by immigrants. Nobody denies that. I think what people are saying is "come into this country legally".

In terms of the Dream Act, how's this for a cruel compromise?

Deport the parents, have the kids go to a foster home while their parents get in line to do things legally.

Sorry, no anchor babies, and no "my kid came into the country illegally as a baby, he/she doesn't deserve this!"

No, the kid doesn't, but the parents certainly do.

That or you can possibly levy a massive taxes/fines on illegal immigrants to make them net positive revenue for Uncle Sam, rather than freeloaders. And if you can't have them be positive revenue providers, well...

I believe we have enough children of legal immigrants in this country.

 

[Anthony DeAngelis]

I am a huge proponent of legal immigration. It amazed me the hoops and the hassle that my GF had to go through to work and stay in this country. She has a binder 6 inches thick with paperwork. She did the right thing.

Listen, people will do what they have to do, but the US makes things too easy. Illegal immigration hurts legal immigrants so this isn't from the perspective of "they are taking our jobs".

 

[Abdel]

You need to deport illegals parents and their kids as well. Even if they came here at the age of 2 and are now 20.

You got to send a strong message. If you do, then illegals will think about it twice before bringing their kids.

Or maybe we should make a law that makes illegal immigration illegal?

I feel like this is an episode of the twilight zone. Where illegals have the legals right, and the legals face tons of barriers & paperwork while the illegals just go there and wait to be giving the citizenship.

Why even have immigration laws then?

This is very disturbing.

 

[Abdel]

Abdel - you telling me that all you need to do to be successful is "study" makes me feel like I'm in an episode of the twilight zone...

Yes Alexei,

Study in your home country, get a degree, then you can go to basicly anywhere on the planet legally.

If that is twiligh zone for you, then lol

 

[alain]

Yes Alexei,

Study in your home country, get a degree, then you can go to basicly anywhere on the planet legally.

If that is twiligh zone for you, then lol

So basically you are depriving your home country of intellectual power... and if the education on your homecountry is "free", you are outright stealing from them.

 

[Abdel]

So basically you are depriving your home country of intellectual power... and if the education on your homecountry is "free", you are outright stealing from them.

Ok since you're not talking about illegal immigration anymore = I won the debate.

Now for your arguments:

1) I do not have attachements to a country, all I want is a place that offers me the opportunity to prove myself. If that 'home' country does not provide it, too bad, intead of stealing oil money they should of invested in that country's education or something.

2) Stealing from them because I got 'free' education? First of all, my family gave back to that country much more than 80% of the population, in terms of sacrifice and achievements. So they should feel thankful and blessed we stayed there for some years.

And to tell you the truth, they can keep their 'shitty' free education. On top of being free, it is easy (they keep lowering the standards) = free & easy and illegals still not too smart to get a degree.

 

[Abdel]

I should study in my home country eh? Does it offend you that my diplomas are all from American institutions? Am I worthless to this country if I happened to be born on a different speck of land?

Uh? I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about illegals.

They should get degrees in their home country so they can come legally.

 

[alain]

1) I do not have attachements to a country, all I want is a place that offers me the opportunity to prove myself. If that 'home' country does not provide it, too bad, intead of stealing oil money they should of invested in that country's education or something.

So, why don't you do something to change it instead of running away?

2) Stealing from them because I got 'free' education? First of all, my family gave back to that country much more than 80% of the population, in terms of sacrifice and achievements. So they should feel thankful and blessed we stayed there for some years.

Whatever your family did is irrelevant, we are talking about you and your contribution to the place where you grew up. Those kids that grew up in this country illegally should be able to give back to this country.

And to tell you the truth, they can keep their 'shitty' free education. On top of being free, it is easy (they keep lowering the standards) = free & easy and illegals still not too smart to get a degree.

Without that "free" and "shitty" education you won't be where you are now, so you should be thankful for it.

 

[Abdel]

I was using myself as a point of reference.

Look, whether you like it or not there are tens of millions of people in this country illegally. Stomping your foot on the ground and saying "get out" is clearly not a solution. It hasn't worked yet, and all attempts thus far to do so have just been a giant waste of money. Or at least it's not a realistic one. At this point American society will crumble. So all of your suggestions are more or less moot since they all involve not suggestions as to how to improve the status quo, but to tell the tens of millions of people to just get out now by force, which is very expensive and a waste of talent, really. Whether we like it or not, these people are here already. Instead of thinking about how to best kick them out, we should start thinking about what the best way to take advantage of the situation is and reform the present, clearly failing, legalities of immigration into a more sustainable system.

Don't you live in Canada anywho? Why the sudden interest in US politics?

Why a 'sudden' interest in US politics? Well maybe because it might affect me sometime in the futur since we have a common border and since there is MS-13-18 gang members starting to show up in our cities. I bet those are the 'waste of talent' you are refering to.
Or maybe it's that one kid out of 10 000 illegals who is good in math.

Now, for the solutions, you simply should of asked my opinion. And here it is:

1) Those who say illegals help the economy fail to understand that because taxes and regulations are high, that it becomes expansive and dangerous (can get sued) to hire legally an employe. So, cut spending so you can afford to lower taxes and regulations to hire legal individuals. And so, you won't need those illegals (or at least, not as much).

2) Stop giving the US citizenship to kids born from non-US citizens. This law was made when slavery was ended because they were scared that the governement wouldn't give the US citizenship to slaves kids.

And you should make it retro-active for the last 15 years. And don't tell me it will be hard for a teen to adjust. What do you think legal immigrant kids do when they go to a new country? They adapt, so will the kids of illegal.

3) Stop the wellfare magnat thats attracting them.

These 3 steps will make them flee back to their home country in a min.

 

[Abdel]

1) So, why don't you something to change it instead of running away?

2) Whatever your family did is irrelevant, we are talking about you and your contribution to the place where you grew up. Those kids that grew up in this country illegally should be able to give back to this country.

3) Without that "free" and "shitty" education you won't be where you are now, so you should be thankful for it.

1) Do something to change it? lol, you clearly do not know what it is like to live under a corrupt/unofficial dictatorship.

2) No, excuse me, it is not irrelevant. That country owe me more than I owe him. And for my direct contribution, well, why contribute to a country that is runned by mob? You want me to make the mafia look good so they can cash in even more money?

3) You know, in that home country, they beat children in class with steel batons. So, trust me when I tell you, this is not what made me be where I'm at today. When your teachers are frustrated people, as a kid, we were scared to get beating. So, you want me to thank that 'education' system?

Clearly you do not know what you are talking about and have a very naive approach.

 

[Abdel]

Clearly you do not know what you are talking about and have a very naive approach.

Ha, sorry Alain, I shoudln't of said you don't know what you're talking about. It is very disrespectful. Sorry.

But I still think your approach is simplistic/naive.

 

[alain]

1) Do something to change it? lol, you clearly do not know what it is like to live under a corrupt/unofficial dictatorship.

2) No, excuse me, it is not irrelevant. That country owe me more than I owe him. And for my direct contribution, well, why contribute to a country that is runned by mob? You want me to make the mafia look good so they can cash in even more money?

3) You know, in that home country, they beat children in class with steel batons. So, trust me when I tell you, this is not what made me be where I'm at today. When your teachers are frustrated people, as a kid, we were scared to get beating. So, you want me to thank that 'education' system?

Clearly you do not know what you are talking about and have a very naive approach.

a little story, I came to this country illegally because it was illegal to leave my country. The government won't let you leave. Think about how bad is where I used to live, that I came from the only country in the world that if you get to US illegally, you are protected by the law on the spot. So I know a lot about dictatorships. The country I came from has been ruled by a dictator for the last 50+ years.

 

[alain]

Ha, sorry, I shoudln't of said you don't know what you're talking about. It is very disrespectful. Sorry.

But I still think your approach is simplistic.

No worries. It is simplistic because the solutions you are providing are very simplistic as well. I'm trying to make a case that is not as black and white as you want it to be (maybe my approach is wrong). Sometimes is extremely hard for the illegals to survive in their own countries. I just want you to have a little of an open mind. How bad do you think it is in the illegals' countries that they are willing to risk their lives to make it here?

 

[Abdel]

a little story, I came to this country illegally because it was illegal to leave my country. The government won't let you leave. Think about how bad is where I use to live that I came from the only country in the world that if you get to US illegally, you are protected by the law on the spot. So I know a lot about dictatorships. The country I came from has been ruled by a dictator for the last 50+ years.

Why you did not flee to a country closer to yours, study there (you probably had your degrees already) then come to the US legally?

And your case is an exceptional one. Most of the illegals in the US are from mexico and it is not a dictatorship.

For the record, my home country wasn't allowing it's citizens to leave too. Unless you had the governement permission. So, no one could leave .

You know what my parents did? They WAITED until things changed to come in legally. They didn't cut the line.