• C++ Programming for Financial Engineering
    Highly recommended by thousands of MFE students. Covers essential C++ topics with applications to financial engineering. Learn more Join!
    Python for Finance with Intro to Data Science
    Gain practical understanding of Python to read, understand, and write professional Python code for your first day on the job. Learn more Join!
    An Intuition-Based Options Primer for FE
    Ideal for entry level positions interviews and graduate studies, specializing in options trading arbitrage and options valuation models. Learn more Join!

Legalize illegal immigration, YES or NO

I am wondering that if Indian students are smart and well prepared why they do not get perfect scores in international math olympiads?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_at_the_International_Mathematical_Olympiad


Because in India, students prepare for entrance into IITs and the coursework in Math required for IIT entrace examination (JEE) is quite different from what is on International Math Olympiads.
For example, there is no calculus in Olympiads, but it forms a big chunk of Math exam for IIT-JEE where as there is very little number theory in IIT-JEE exams, which is one major topic in Olympiad.

Indian students traditionally perform much better in International Physics and Chemistry Olympiads since those olympiads have more overlap with JEE syllabus. (In International Physics Olympiads, the performance of a country is measured by efficiency score which is a weighted sum of all medals and honorable mentions recieved by that country. India's overall score over 37 years of IPhO stands at 70%, which is 3rd best after Russia and China). Link=> http://www.ipho2007.ir/SecondE/Competition/Showtbl3.asp

Most Indian parents would scoff at their kids if the kids spent too much time preparing for Olympiads on topics which don't matter in JEE. Because only performance in JEE is what is gonna get them into IIT, not performance in Olympiads (whereas in country like USA, a gold medal in Math/Physics olympiad may have significant effect in a student's chances to get into say MIT or Caltech).
 
Gerel, ChaoticGambler and everybody else:

Performance for students in the international math olympiad and any related reasoning/arguments is a totally off track topic for this thread.

The topic of this thread is whether to "Legalize illegal immigration, YES or NO".
 
U.S. Alters Disputed Immigration Rules for Police - NYTimes.com
PHOENIX — Addressing one of the most contentious immigration policies in recent years, the Obama administration unveiled changes Friday in a program that allows state and local police officers enforce federal immigration law.

As promised in July, the Department of Homeland Security said it had revamped the program to focus on rooting out illegal immigrants who have committed serious crimes. The changes also require law enforcement officers enrolled in the program to abide by federal anti-discrimination law. In addition, federal officials pledged to supervise the program more closely, flag problems and field complaints from the public.

U.S. Cant Trace Foreign Visitors on Expired Visas - NYTimes.com
DALLAS — Eight years after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and despite repeated mandates from Congress, the United States still has no reliable system for verifying that foreign visitors have left the country.

New concern was focused on that security loophole last week, when Hosam Maher Husein Smadi, a 19-year-old Jordanian who had overstayed his tourist visa, was accused in court of plotting to blow up a Dallas skyscraper.

Last year alone, 2.9 million foreign visitors on temporary visas like Mr. Smadi’s checked in to the country but never officially checked out, immigration officials said. While officials say they have no way to confirm it, they suspect that several hundred thousand of them overstayed their visas.

Over all, the officials said, about 40 percent of the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants in the United States came on legal visas and overstayed
.
 
Our Nobel Prize Winning Immigrants

By Alex Nowrasteh

Americans dominated the 2009 Nobel Prizes for the sciences. Eight of the nine winners were American citizens. What is even more striking is that five of those American winners are immigrants to the United States. Yet, in the immigration debate, the contribution of highly educated and skilled immigrants to American technology and science is often ignored.

That contribution cannot be overestimated. One quarter of American Nobel Prize winners since 1901 have been immigrants. Today, a third of all the scientists and engineers in Silicon Valley are immigrants or foreign-born. Furthermore, 40 percent of the Ph.D. scientists working in the U.S. are foreign-born. Unfortunately, our immigration laws ignore these facts.

The driver of economic growth in the modern world is knowledge, and scientific discoveries spill over into related fields to fuel further discoveries. Scientists working in research teams can quickly share insights with each other, allowing greater output. Scientists and engineers working closely together increase the speed and scope of their research. When this brain power is geographically concentrated, it boosts economic growth and technological development.

America's current immigration laws artificially limit our capacity for technological advancement. The engineers and Ph.D.s driving much of the technological innovation in Silicon Valley are overwhelmingly Indian, and a growing number of them are here illegally. According to the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Immigration Statistics, there are almost 300,000 illegal Indian immigrants in the U.S. Many of them arrived here on H-1B or student visas and have overstayed their legal residency in the hope of getting a green card.

Indian immigrant workers are generally highly skilled and enjoy high incomes. Average Indian-American households have an income 62 percent greater than the average. The skills, work ethic, and entrepreneurial spirit that make Indian immigrants such a successful group are remarkably constant throughout the community, regardless of legal status. Instead of making them jump through bureaucratic hoops, we should encourage them to live here peacefully and contribute to society.

Foreign graduate students also contribute to America's ongoing technological success. A 2005 World Bank study found that foreign graduate students working in the United States file an enormous number of patents. Additionally, a quarter of international patents filed from the U.S. in 2006 named a non-U.S. citizen working in the U.S. as the inventor or co-inventor. Many of those immigrants whom our immigration bureaucracy refuses to recognize are responsible for the rapid technological advancement of recent decades.

Ultimately, highly skilled immigrants benefit the American economy. Counting just the value of patents, scientific discoveries, and firms started by immigrants, it is clear that their arrival has paid off handsomely for the U.S. And rather than take jobs away from Americans, more people with wider skills and greater experience increase employment opportunities. The non-partisan National Foundation for American Policy reports that for every H-1B visa issued, U.S. technology firms increase their employment by five workers. In that sense, every day that almost 300,000 Indian immigrants spend in legal limbo represents a gargantuan waste of creativity.

And that doesn't even count the millions of talented individuals from China, Europe, and elsewhere who would come here seeking greater opportunity if the law would only let them. The five immigrant Nobel Prize winners came from Britain, Canada, Australia, China, and India. The number of potential Nobel Prize winners who have lost their opportunity to do research in this country is unknown. What is known is that the U.S. government has kept out millions of the most inventive, brilliant, and entrepreneurial people in the world for no good reason.

RealClearMarkets - Our Nobel Prize Winning Immigrants
 
By Alex Nowrasteh

Ultimately, highly skilled immigrants benefit the American economy. Counting just the value of patents, scientific discoveries, and firms started by immigrants, it is clear that their arrival has paid off handsomely for the U.S. And rather than take jobs away from Americans, more people with wider skills and greater experience increase employment opportunities. The non-partisan National Foundation for American Policy reports that for every H-1B visa issued, U.S. technology firms increase their employment by five workers. In that sense, every day that almost 300,000 Indian immigrants spend in legal limbo represents a gargantuan waste of creativity.

This can be disputed. It's the kind of argument that Tom Friedman makes in the NYT time and again. Their arrival pays off handsomely for US capital. I don't think it pays off well for the ordinary American. The usual disingenuous conflation is made between US capital and the "US" -- as if they're one and the same thing. Some years back -- before the current depression -- unemployment among over-50 US programmers was over 20%. Why? Cheaper to import cheaper foreign workers at a fraction of the price, who can be squeezed like coolie labor. Supposedly this makes the economy more "dynamic" (so argue shills like Tom Friedman). Immigration invariably weakens the hand of indigenous labor and makes it more difficult to confront capital.
 
See attachment. This is one of the better US immigrations guides I've seen. I ran across a few people and experiences over the past months that made me wonder why there has been so much recent back lash against the H1B program. Of course some would say it is the 9.7% unemployment and a lot of people are out of a job, or the recent abuses of the H1B program by a few companies. But considering that the US government gives away 50000 - 55000 green cards / PR cards every year through the DV lottery system, sort of underscores that fact.

This DV program has been around for a while and not once have I heard any of the "all knowing" pundits and TV commentators like Lou Dobbs, et al or senators complain about the program.

I've run into some folks that came to the US through this program and most of them complain that they're stuck in the lower class doing low wage jobs and will probably remain there for the for seeable future mostly because they were unable to get an education here due to their urge to start working here as soon as they arrived and send remittances back home. I've ran into people who were professionals back home before coming over through the DV program and have regretted that singular act. Bear in mind, that the minimum requirement for the DV program is a high school diploma or few years of technical training.

Instead of giving those green cards away randomly, they can reapportion a percentage of them to advanced degree graduates (MS, PhD) from US universities who will probably have to go through the H1B waiting game if they'll be staying in the country and also through green card limbo if they're planning on getting it through their employers.

Sounds to me like "blame the immigrant" is the panacea some politicians are shouting at the top of their voices or the sentiment that immigrants are welcomed to the US as long as they are / will be stuck in the lower class. Makes me feel like moving up north.
 

Attachments

  • ImmigrationLawsforBusinessBooklet05.pdf
    341.3 KB · Views: 25
I share same opinion here. The number of people going through standard green-card process is lower and lower. EB3 backlog makes it unusable. Also, as an Indian/Chinese, you stand little chanced of getting the green-card by following the legal steps.
Some authorities want to reduce immigration. Ok, nothing to say there.

The problem is that same count is allotted to lottery system. Basically you are choosing between following 2 candidates:
1. Never worked in the States. No requirement to speak the language or integrate in the society. No requirement for special skills or advanced education.
2. Worked legally in the States for at least a couple of years. Fluent speaker in most cases, this is needed for most jobs. Studied in the States most likely with full-financing. Average or above average pay as a Masters/PhD so a good tax contribution.
And the winner is candidate 1 ...

If we add also in the discussion the illegal immigrants, then it really doesn't make any sense. Broad picture, we could think that authorities don't want these Masters/PhD educated in the States, to remain here. I mean they are choosing all other candidates before these guys.

Check-out some angry comments on this article ...
http://shusterman.typepad.com/natio...ll-would-revamp-the-eb-preference-system.html
 
The problem is that same count is allotted to lottery system. Basically you are choosing between following 2 candidates:
1. Never worked in the States. No requirement to speak the language or integrate in the society. No requirement for special skills or advanced education.
2. Worked legally in the States for at least a couple of years. Fluent speaker in most cases, this is needed for most jobs. Studied in the States most likely with full-financing. Average or above average pay as a Masters/PhD so a good tax contribution.
And the winner is candidate 1 ...

If we add also in the discussion the illegal immigrants, then it really doesn't make any sense. Broad picture, we could think that authorities don't want these Masters/PhD educated in the States, to remain here. I mean they are choosing all other candidates before these guys.
[/URL]

It boggles my mind that candidate 1 will be picked over candidate 2. Especially with the recent debate about legalizing all the illegals. Those that have followed the law to the letter will have to wait for their turn in line....which could be several years especially if you're from China or India. Bear in mind that Candidate 2 will probably be paying tens of thousands of dollars in taxes and Candidate 1 will most likely be dependent on the system.

The real question though is, will legalizing all the current illegals solve the immigration debacle? Absolutely Not!! In a few years there will be millions more..and much thanks to however came up with the idea of building a 700 mile fence to cover a 2100 mile border. It's outright hilarious when you watch some of the border crossing videos online. You'll see folks literally walking or running casually across the border and in some cases driving over / ramming the fence.

I'm all for equal opportunity and all, but if the law is designed for those who break it to get to the final destination faster than those who follow it, then we all have some hard thinking to do.

A friend of mine recently moved up north to Canada, got his PR paperwork all done in about 6 months...just like that. Maybe taking some notes from the Canadian playbook won't be such a bad idea.
 
I know a few members here who came to the US via the DV program. I also met a few people from Africa throughout college that took advantage of the opportunity to educate themselves.

Keep in mind the purpose of DV program is to diversify the ethnic groups in the US. That's why China, India, Mexico and many other countries don't qualify since they have substantial presence in this country. You can enter the lottery once a year. It's a lottery so some got luckier than others.

While not perfect, i don't know of any other country on earth who still let people immigrate in this scale. Canada may be a short distance behind.

It's just tough luck that China and India have huge population that makes their queue huge.
 
Keep in mind the purpose of DV program is to diversify the ethnic groups in the US. That's why China, India, Mexico and many other countries don't qualify since they have substantial presence in this country. You can enter the lottery once a year. It's a lottery so some got luckier than others.

This argument would work if the only people going through OPT -> H1B -> GC application are from China and India. In that case, authorities can say diversity is important and they want to limit expansion of certain nationalities.

However this is not the case. There are many people from other countries (with lottery system) that go through the same GC process. Due to all sorts of problems, it leads to work permit issues. I even know some people that chose to apply for visa lottery while working in the States because they have a higher chance of getting the green-card.
So in the end, you are choosing between 2 candidates from same country as mentioned in previous post ...
 
Here we go again, another round of legal immigration reform talk. This time, Obama is lending full support as his supporters are losing patience with his promise.

Days before a planned march in Washington, D.C., two U.S. senators announced their framework Thursday for a bipartisan immigration bill that would increase resources for border enforcement, create a biometric Social Security card to prevent forgeries and legalize millions of undocumented immigrants.

Sens. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) laid out their proposal in an opinion piece in the Washington Post, saying that "the American people deserve more than empty rhetoric and impractical calls for mass deportation." The plan also calls for creation of a program to admit temporary workers.
Senators announce framework for bipartisan immigration bill - latimes.com
 
Haha. Holy ****.


According to the plan, a bill would also give green cards to immigrants who earn a master's or doctorate in science, technology, engineering or math from a U.S. university.


That's intense.
 
The plan calls for a big increase in immigration agents patrolling workplaces, and would require all workers, including legal immigrants and American citizens, to present a tamper-proof Social Security card when they apply for jobs. Biometric identity information would be stored on the card and not in any government database, according to an explanatory document from the senators.
The plan’s emphasis is on making it easier for highly skilled and educated immigrants to come to the United States, including awarding residence documents known as green cards to those who receive advanced degrees in science and technology from American universities. It proposes a limited program for temporary lower-skilled guest workers, tightly keyed to changes in the American labor market.
To gain legal status, illegal immigrants would have to admit their legal violation, pay fines and back taxes and perform community service.

2 Senators Offer Immigration Overhaul - NYTimes.com
 
Take that London ;)

London sucks (I'm in London at the moment). This about sums up my own opinion:

Having been born and raised in London and then lived 17 years in New York and ten in Johannesburg, I can attest that the London I came back to can be best described as having all the worst aspects of New York and none of its best. In other words a cheap and nasty copy of the city so nice they named it twice. All the really good things about London’s aggregation of villages around a centre that made it a unique and diverse city have been gutted and replaced with a vulgar, mass-produced facade that can be found in any corporatized city on the planet.
 
The plan calls for a big increase in immigration agents patrolling workplaces, and would require all workers, including legal immigrants and American citizens, to present a tamper-proof Social Security card when they apply for jobs. Biometric identity information would be stored on the card and not in any government database, according to an explanatory document from the senators.
The plan’s emphasis is on making it easier for highly skilled and educated immigrants to come to the United States, including awarding residence documents known as green cards to those who receive advanced degrees in science and technology from American universities. It proposes a limited program for temporary lower-skilled guest workers, tightly keyed to changes in the American labor market.
To gain legal status, illegal immigrants would have to admit their legal violation, pay fines and back taxes and perform community service.

2 Senators Offer Immigration Overhaul - NYTimes.com

This looks like "noise" in the opposite direction. In other words, same politicians, a year ago were blaming these skilled immigrants for taking American jobs. Now they suddenly want to give them a green-card. What changed in the meantime?
This is just another rumor to win some votes ...
 
Exactly,.. but with most bills, sponsors usually start with very leftist or rightist ideas and then eventually compromise in the middle. Call me a cynic, but I would be surprised if something like this passes. This will literally open up the flood gates for folks to get those elusive GCs

This looks like "noise" in the opposite direction. In other words, same politicians, a year ago were blaming these skilled immigrants for taking American jobs. Now they suddenly want to give them a green-card. What changed in the meantime?
This is just another rumor to win some votes ...
 
I know I'd be vehemently opposed to someone just burning through a full-time master's program in a year and getting a GC. Absolutely, completely, vehemently opposed. After all, there are a ton of schools out there that'd let in everyone and their dog into the program in exchange for cash, while all they have to do is print out a cheap $5 diploma.

A PhD though takes a ton of time, effort, and love for the subject, and I'm pretty convinced that anyone succeeding in getting a PhD is someone that's going to be, odds are, using that degree for what it was meant to, rather than just going to Wall Street.

Basically, a master's you can choose to pursue for a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (in fact that's what they're they're for), while a PhD takes far longer.

I'm all for a PhD granting a green card. A professor I never had at Rutgers (Rebecka Jornstein her name was) I heard about from a classmate, who claimed she was "terrific" as a professor. Considering she got her PhD in 2001 or 2 from UCB, I'm absolutely not surprised, considering she'd be only slightly older than one of my favorite Lehigh professors.
 
Back
Top