Quant Job Prospects Post 2011

[subhrain]

Hello guys,

For people who will be joining mfe/msmf starting this fall, will probably graduate by 2011. I have read things that support the idea that there would be an increase in quant (technical) roles. On the other hand I have also read that jobs will decrease.

Any ideas as to what the future prospects are with a mfe/msmf degree.

 

[Connor]

Someone made a very good point in another thread (can't remember who) in that they said there will probably be greater demand for quant-type roles in other fields outside of finance in the near future, so the skills will be valuable but whether you will be able to get a quant job in finance is uncertain. I imagine things will be somewhat better in a year or two compared to now at least.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Be open to other job opportunities and don't limit yourself to finance jobs. That would be a better advice than to find someone with a crystal ball.
Economists can't even predict the next month unemployment data, let alone job prospect next year.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Economists can't even predict the next month unemployment data, let alone job prospect next year.

They can predict it (roughly). But they dare not release their true forecasts as the authorities keep saying things like "We've turned the corner," and "Recovery has started." So they have to act surprised each time the month's dismal figures come out and support the official line by saying "Employment is a lagging indicator and next month, soon, some time, we will see the figures reverse themselves."

The market for quants a year or two down the line will be roughly the same as it is today. With the difference that there will be more MFE and PhD graduates chasing the jobs that there are. Boom time is over.

 

[DominiConnor]

I'm not even a real economist and I can't predict future demand.

But as I've said elsewhere, gross supply / demand levels don't alter the way you make decisions once you've started along this path.

It was competitive at the top of the market, and will be so when you graduate, your decisions should optimise with respect to beating others.

The supply of MFE grads is now higher than when the market was at it's peak, so it won't be as good as then any time soon. But that is a boundary, not a forecast, it could be much worse.

But it doesn't matter.
What matters is making good choices and working very hard.

As P&D's relationship with various universities continues to improve, we toy with the idea of getting lecturers to report to us the names of people who ask "is this on the exam ?", so we can delete them from our recruiting database.

I know this stuff can be hard, but an MFE is an entry level qualification, you don't know enough, you probably never will, but those who read chapters 3,5,7, and 11 like the teacher says ain't gonna get the good jobs.

 

[dstefan]

Interesting thought. I have not been asked the question regarding what chapters to study for the exam in about 4 years, if memory serves me well... :-k

 

[bigbadwolf]

As P&D's relationship with various universities continues to improve, we toy with the idea of getting lecturers to report to us the names of people who ask "is this on the exam ?", so we can delete them from our recruiting database.

Dominic, one idea might be to tell people what criteria you use to admit people to your database (or chuck them out). So that prospective entrants to the field know what kind of odds they're facing and can make more informed decisions on whether to commit themselves or not. You'd be doing people a big favor. I've been seeing a few apprehensive posts on this forum regarding what the job prospects are likely to be.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

As P&D's relationship with various universities continues to improve, we toy with the idea of getting lecturers to report to us the names of people who ask "is this on the exam ?", so we can delete them from our recruiting database.

Good luck with that. You can't even get a reliable indication/data of how 99% of schools are doing to help get jobs to their students. What makes you think they will spend their time to help you clean your database?

Your sense of humor is obvious in this case, Dominic.

 

[physEcon]

As P&D's relationship with various universities continues to improve, we toy with the idea of getting lecturers to report to us the names of people who ask "is this on the exam ?", so we can delete them from our recruiting database.

I've always resented people looking down at asking "is this on the exam?". Yes I want to know if I need to learn this topic NOW or can look at it later. It's just like prioritizing your projects at work based on required dates.

 

[Joy Pathak]

I think its a lie if any undergraduate student has not asked the question about what is on an exam. It is a common undergraduate mentality, and a good one at that.

When I was doing my undergrad in engineering I asked several times as to what was on the exam and what wasn't so I could prioritize my exam preparation so as to not get a bad grade by focusing on things that were relevant rather than the ones that weren't. I had read everything, but what was important at the time was to score the highest grades possible. I had 6 courses per semester. I could not just assume that everything would be on it when I knew it would not as time was of the essence.

During my PhD studies, I do not think I ever asked about what is on exams nor did anyone in my classes at Wisconsin-Madison ask anything of that sort. The aim at that time was not to attain the highest grade but to be able to learn as much as possible and we would be tested on everything and that was fine because we were learning everything possible in our area of research anyways. The courses are so specialized that once almost never learns outside of the mentioned topic so there is no need to ask what is and what isnt on an exam.

---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------

But, in response to the main topic...

I asked during two of my interviews about in terms of how many entry level people are being hired at their firms..and their response was... around 200 OVERALL (All divisions and jobs). For the quant internship I was interviewing, they were hiring 3 at one place and 2 at the other in the particular section of the division.

I dont want to disclose the name of the firms but its two of ... -JP Morgan Chase, Morgan Stanley , Barclays, Goldman sachs, Credit Suisse , BNP Paribas -

For the OVERALL company one said they were hiring about150ish and other said around 200, and I think although the interviewee did not specify, I am certain they mean't American locations especially New York City.

There are so many jobs online, if you look around. A firm I am waiting to hear back from in Chicago has over 60 full-time and 13 internship positions on their website currently. Another firms recruiters that I met with at Wisconsin Career fair had over 50 full-time finance and accounting at their Chicago location alone (but this was their headquarters also).

Everyone needs to be open in their job search and not just google search quant analyst.

One thing is for sure, the competition for quant jobs is increasing at a RIDICULOUS RATE. I was sitting among PhD of Carnegie and Michigan in engineering during a superday. The question is, how are you going to differentiate yourself among the thousands like yourself that apply to the same job and with almost similar qualifications. I know how I am going to, do you know how you will ?

 

[young]

I can see why people would take offense to looking down on asking "that question." If we havent asked, then we've at least thought of it over the course of our rigorous curriculums.

But I must say that I got a different message from Dominic's post... I dont think his intention was to state that asking the question is a mark of a terrible candidate. But rather in this highly competitive environment, the smallest of details matter. And the difference between getting the job and not, can be the result of such trivial things as "the question."

Besides they're just "toying" with the idea and there is no way that teachers will ever remember student's names

 

[Joy Pathak]

I can see why people would take offense to looking down on asking "that question." If we havent asked, then we've at least thought of it over the course of our rigorous curriculums.

But I must say that I got a different message from Dominic's post... I dont think his intention was to state that asking the question is a mark of a terrible candidate. But rather in this highly competitive environment, the smallest of details matter. And the difference between getting the job and not, can be the result of such trivial things as "the question."

Besides they're just "toying" with the idea and there is no way that teachers will ever remember student's names

He was obviously joking, but he was at the same time trying to insinuate something very important.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

So back to the topic, what is the career outlook for quants?
Senate Panel Approves Derivatives Reform Bill - NYTimes.com

Politic, market forces play unpredictable roles in what's in/hot for the next few years. Don't try to play the "wagon hopping" game. May as well study something you enjoy.

 

[Joy Pathak]

So back to the topic, what is the career outlook for quants?
Senate Panel Approves Derivatives Reform Bill - NYTimes.com

Politic, market forces play unpredictable roles in what's in/hot for the next few years. Don't try to play the "wagon hopping" game. May as well study something you enjoy.

The more they regulate the more talent will be needed to come up with ideas to get around these regulations and create hedging instruments and so on...

At least I hope...

 

[bigbadwolf]

I think its a lie if any undergraduate student has not asked the question about what is on an exam. It is a common undergraduate mentality, and a good one at that.

I never did as an undergrad and the other British undergrads I knew didn't do so either. Perhaps it's more prevalent in the USA, where undergrads expect to be spoonfed. Sometimes the lecturer (at my university) might suggest during the course of a lecture that the topic was important -- but as often as not the topic wouldn't turn up on the exam paper.

The relationship between student and lecturer in Britan tends to be a formal one (and even more so in countries like, say, Germany). In the USA, on the other hand, I've oftern seen students trying to cosy up to the prof and try to get clues on what will be on the exam. I've seen assignments given that had no relationship to past lectures and could simply not be done without cosying up to the prof and getting essential definitions and clues off him. I've seen grades dependent on the personal relationship between student and prof. Only in America.

 

[Joy Pathak]

I never did as an undergrad and the other British undergrads I knew didn't do so either. Perhaps it's more prevalent in the USA, where undergrads expect to be spoonfed. Sometimes the lecturer (at my university) might suggest during the course of a lecture that the topic was important -- but as often as not the topic wouldn't turn up on the exam paper.

The relationship between student and lecturer in Britan tends to be a formal one (and even more so in countries like, say, Germany). In the USA, on the other hand, I've oftern seen students trying to cosy up to the prof and try to get clues on what will be on the exam. I've seen assignments given that had no relationship to past lectures and could simply not be done without cosying up to the prof and getting essential definitions and clues off him. I've seen grades dependent on the personal relationship between student and prof. Only in America.

I am sure you aren't lying but I find that hard to believe. I noticed people asking in India and I noticed people asking during my undergrad in Canada. I did not notice as I said during my graduate studies in USA. I cannot comment on US undergrad as I was not exposed to it but I am sure a lot of them did.

It is not about spoon feeding. Yes, if it is asking questions about exam to the point of annoyance and to get hints and "cosy" up to a prof, yes there are some of those who take it to the extreme and are most possibly not the ones who are all that successful in life possibly. I was merely pointing out the students who ask the minimal questions regarding exams in terms of material preparation.

To each their own though.

 

[bigbadwolf]

I am sure you aren't lying but I find that hard to believe.

The extreme case is the Cambridge Part 3 (math) exam, where in the past unsolved research problems would often be put in the exam papers -- and occasionally they would be solved under exam conditions. You might enjoy reading Andrew Warwick's "Masters of Theory."

Speaking of Cambridge, a student once told John Frank Adams, "Sorry, I don't understand that," to which Adams replied, "Then I suggest you go home and read a book on it until you do understand it." Another time, a student claimed Adams had made a mistake at the board. Adams' chalk broke in his hand in his fury. Now you're not going to ask a professor like this what's going to be on the exam, are you? No hand-holding here.

 

[Joy Pathak]

The extreme case is the Cambridge Part 3 (math) exam, where in the past unsolved research problems would often be put in the exam papers -- and occasionally they would be solved under exam conditions. You might enjoy reading Andrew Warwick's "Masters of Theory."

Speaking of Cambridge, a student once told John Frank Adams, "Sorry, I don't understand that," to which Adams replied, "Then I suggest you go home and read a book on it until you do understand it." Another time, a student claimed Adams had made a mistake at the board. Adams' chalk broke in his hand in his fury. Now you're not going to ask a professor like this what's going to be on the exam, are you? No hand-holding here.

John Frank Adams?! Damn, you're not as young/old as me, assuming the "student" who told you was in the class with JFA and you are of similar age. I was three years old when he passed away. Okay, it would be a bit intimidating to have John Frank Adams teaching you. A nobel prize winner was visiting UWmadison for a semester for research and taught me half of one of my courses in Nucleation theory. I can empathize with the student, on the not asking a question with professors of that caliber.

And regarding solving unsolved questions during exams, yeah, I have heard of the stories from Cambridge (Poynting and so on)... but most of the stories are from the early 1900's , or atleast the ones I have heard.

Regardless, that's pretty intense.If someone figures out the solution for Navier Stokes or Riemann's hypothesis during an exam... I will flip.

But, I think things might be different from when you went to school and now. I am sure things at Cambridge are quite different in terms of "asking questions" now.

 

[vidyevad]

Hello Andy,

I am currently pursuing MS in applied mathematics and want to do job in quantitative finance, especially derivative markets. So, can you please suggest some job search engines/websites ?

Thanks,
VIdyesh

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Google "quant finance job"
Did you see the banners on our site? one of them is from such job engines.