The college bubble

[alain]

Someone have to be the grown up on the block, it sounds ridiculous to me that after getting accreditation a school can do whatever it likes.
Someone have to put standards , isn't this why Bar Exams are held?

I agree with you somehow but that's not how things work over here. Regarding Bar exams for instance, if you talking about Lawyers, they are controlled at the State level and every state has its own. Medicine is a different story. Every state has its own set of rules and requirements.

It might sound ridiculous but sadly, it's more or less how it works.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

The documentary is almost a year old. There has been a lot going on since then.
http://www.quantnet.com/forum/threads/for-profit-colleges-mislead-students-report-finds.4299/

In the document, it mentioned "gainful employment" as a proposal that is hotly contested by the lobbyists. That's essential a requirement that will get most of these for-profit programs out of business. I don't know if this passed the money test at all.

 

[Ohad]

I agree with you somehow but that's not how things work over here. Regarding Bar exams for instance, if you talking about Lawyers, they are controlled at the State level and every state has its own. Medicine is a different story. Every state has its own set of rules and requirements.

It might sound ridiculous but sadly, it's more or less how it works.

State/government to me isn't much of a difference, what I mean is to have someone who is objective and put standards that are unbiased and think of the student.

From what the documentary portrays everyone with a free room and some chairs can give out a college degree and there are almost no official "stamps" to diffrentiate a Yale degree than a scammer degree in terms of official "stamps".

Obviously the documentary try to make it look worse than it is since it fits their agenda but I assume that in general its the trend.

 

[alain]

... and put standards that are unbiased and think of the student.

Good luck with that. Who has the money? that's who is in charge.

From what the documentary portrays everyone with a free room and some chairs can give out a college degree and there are almost no official "stamps" to diffrentiate a Yale degree than a scammer degree in terms of official "stamps".

That's pretty much how it is. I'm sure somewhere, there must be some for-profit school that is good. However, from that documentary it seemed that is not the case.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Someone have to be the grown up on the block, it sounds ridiculous to me that after getting accreditation a school can do whatever it likes.
Someone have to put standards , isn't this why Bar Exams are held?

Perhaps you are thinking of something like the CNAA in the UK, which existed from 1965 to 1992. The USA does not function this way, sadly: in areas such as education and social welfare the US state differs profoundly from European states.

 

[Ohad]

Perhaps you are thinking of something like the CNAA in the UK, which existed from 1965 to 1992. The USA does not function this way, sadly: in areas such as education and social welfare the US state differs profoundly from European states.

Different doesn't necessarily means bad, the Ivy league and many other schools are considered the best in the world in any field and criteria.

Some issues need to be resolved which is to be expected, but I don't see any of the issues raised here as hard to solve if you have the balls to make these decisions on a Federal level and the rest will have to align.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Different doesn't necessarily means bad, the Ivy league and many other schools are considered the best in the world in any field and criteria.

They are over-rated and European, Russian, and other schools under-rated.

Some issues need to be resolved which is to be expected, but I don't see any of the issues raised here as hard to solve if you have the balls to make these decisions on a Federal level and the rest will have to align.

Who in government? Errand boys like Arne Duncan? Or some other corporate-vetted and -backed shill? The US state is increasingly a front for corporate interests: this is what you don't seem to be understanding. It is not contested territory between private and public interests, as it is in Europe and a few other parts of the world. That is why in so many areas regulations, standards, and protections for industry, for workers, and for citizens don't exist.

 

[Ohad]

They are over-rated and European, Russian, and other schools under-rated.

Who in government? Errand boys like Arne Duncan? Or some other corporate-vetted and -backed shill? The US state is increasingly a front for corporate interests: this is what you don't seem to be understanding. It is not contested territory between private and public interests, as it is in Europe and a few other parts of the world. That is why in so many areas regulations, standards, and protections for industry, for workers, and for citizens don't exist.

Don't think this happens only in the US, the ties between politics & corporate money are in every country.
But people who are supposed to be unbiased and have lots of power & authority , for example the Secretary Of Education (which seems to be as smart as a frying pan from how he presented himself in the documentary) should start and push this.

Once it start to roll it will get more support, don't forget that the schools that do real research and produce good students have lots of money too and wouldn't like to see the word "degree" turned into a curse word.
So in this debate the good guys have lots of power and money too

 

[Anthony DeAngelis]

I think a couple more points will add some meat to this discussion.

1) Many times when you see super high tuition prices, these will include room, board, a new laptop, insurance, etc. For example, when I went to Syracuse, pure tuition was 30K per year, but the price tag with everything included was ~50K. Pretty big difference when you look at 4 years worth.

2) There are many lower cost alternatives. SUNY tuition is still pretty cheap. State schools across the country are modestly prices. Many private schools have tuition in the 10-20k range. A 100K investment for something that will elevate your earning potential for life (in most circumstances) is a great investment.

3) Student loans can be used for non school expenses (living, apt, etc). Many students who have monstrous debt also took a bunch of nice vacations during school and most likely have a nice, new LCD TV.

4) People need to realize that if you want to be a history teacher, marginal benefit of going to Duke over SUNY Oswego just isn't there. The government could save people a lot of money be telling people to go to lower priced schools. I don't want this, but this highlights how individual decision really makes a big impact on these costs.

@BBW - I don't know if top schools in Europe are underrated, I think maybe they are overshadowed. The Ivy league schools in the USA are arguably the best if not on par with the best around the world.

They also tend to be need blind so those who get in and cannot afford it, go for free.

This really just is an issue of individual choice. People have an obligation to inform themselves. We live in a world where every bit of information is free and at your finger tips. We have blogs where people show how much garbage for profit schools. We have rankings, this website, wikipedia, congressional hearings, etc. People really need to start growing up and making their own decisions. You have to sign for every loan, you clearly see the dollar amounts, there are countless websites that show projected earnings for various degrees. Zero excuse to take out 200K in debt for a sociology undergrad and expect to make 75K a year to start. 5 minutes searching on google would dispel that misinformation.

 

[Anthony DeAngelis]

Europe has a negative birth rate, strong anti immigrant sentiment, wars surrounding its tertiary, countries bankrupt or on the verge and fiscal austerity starring them in the face. I don't think Europe is the ideal to emulate. A utopian society is only great because it is held up by other people working. The idea that we are all pals and love each other is great, but no way in hell I am going to be working until midnight (like I will be tonight) so my neighbor can purse the arts the university.

I also still do not understand this corporate society we live in. I work, I pay taxes and I enjoy myself. I buy whatever clothes I like, read whatever books I like, eat whatever food I like. I add value and my employer pays me for that value. That is how it should be.

Just like this housing crisis. I didn't realize people were forced to buy houses and forced to max out their home equity for the "necessary" purchases they made. People went nuts and then they got screwed. Always someone else's fault.

 

[mfegrad]

-> 20 years ago and now US portrayed the then USSR at military oriented and communist, but today it finds itself in those same shoes-uncontrollable military spending, and going at war with every other nation -Afganistan/Iraq/North Korea? and now perhaps Iran.

when did we declare war on north korea or iran? iraq, in hindsight, sure, not the greatest thing; at the time, though, it made sense. afghanistan? we were actually working with the afghanis against a terrorist faction. so no, we didn't go to war with afghanistan.

-> 20 years ago US complained about India and China for being protective, but today it itself finds itself levying taxes on every other good imported and framing China for currency manipulation. Today, half of America's manufacturing Industry is China, and half of American tech Industry is in India.

china is manipulating its currency. just yesterday bb had news that china was thinking of setting up a fund to help intervene re: its currency. anthony's points here stand as well. and i'm not sure what point you're attempting to make by pointing out the fact that we outsource.

-> 15 years ago, getting an American visa was extremely easy. Today it is tougher to get an American visa than to get an Indian visa- longer processing times, massive blunders are but the norm at the US embassy in India.

i still see people fighting to come to the usa, so we must be doing something right. if you want to get in this country easily, just jump the border...but that's an argument for another day. but yeah, you won't hear me arguing against increasing skilled immigration.

-> 10-15 years ago Indians flocked to US, in hope of better jobs etc, but today several Indians (well-settled) have returned to India, for there are much better job opportunities and much faster career growth in India.

my path train ride home today would serve to refute this.

and as for raising taxes on everything: no. incorrect. false. bad.

 

[rishab dhar]

If you really think that Ivy league is so great and US education system is superior to almost all European countries, then you maybe wrong. I agree with BigBadWolf that US education is simply overrated, just as UK education. The simply thing is that many Indian and Chinese students are just not strong enough to go the long way/hard way. The don't want to go into the trouble of learning another language (other than English); Hence, there is more demand for US education than for European education,ex UK. Also most Indians simply look at ranking to decide their college, without taking into account the course structure, the faculty, the environment, the learning experience that they might have at another college.

Just see the youth unemployment rates of these countries. US and UK are no different than many other European countries which are suffering extremely high youth unemployment rates. Exceptions : Germany,Switzerland,Austria, Netherlands. These countries have lowest youth unemployment rates, and for a change, none of these have the so called "IVY LEAGUE UNIVERSITIES"

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/12/youth_unemployment

Besides, Even Harvard degree in MBA might not help you get anywhere in Germany, as the want PhDs to be their CEO, not some slick guy who thinks he knows everything. Just look at the CEOs of all German MNCs.

I read about a guy MBA-Stanford and BS-UCB on toytown. He was earning 300k in US. He wanted to work in Germany,because of better working conditions, but he was dreaming about salaries of 250k euros, until someone (german) told him that "A MBA is at best equivalent to a German diploma". We don't consider it much. You can at best expect 100k euros, and a week later, he got an offer of 70k! So much so for Ivy league. He was treated just like another job applicant, and he was told that for managerial or CEO positions they look for PhDs.

 

[bigbadwolf]

I also still do not understand this corporate society we live in. I work, I pay taxes and I enjoy myself. I buy whatever clothes I like, read whatever books I like, eat whatever food I like. I add value and my employer pays me for that value. That is how it should be.

Opinions vary. There are many negative things to say about Europe. There are some positive things to say about the USA.

Like you say, affordable state schools is the way to go.

 

[bigbadwolf]

I agree with BigBadWolf that US education is simply overrated, just as UK education.

That's my opinion. I think the German and French universities just don't a hoot about the league tables, which are often made in the USA or UK and which are biased towards their universities. Not saying Harvard and MIT are not good; just that the differences in undergrad and even grad education between the best in the US /UK and the continental Europeans ones might not be that great.

 

[rishab dhar]

i still see people fighting to come to the usa, so we must be doing something right. if you want to get in this country easily, just jump the border...but that's an argument for another day. but yeah, you won't hear me arguing against increasing skilled immigration.

As a matter of fact Canada grants more PRs than US does, and the number of people who naturalized Canadian citizens last year was half the number of those who were awarded US citizenship, but Canadian population is just 1/10 that of US. Also, the number of people who were awarded US citizenship has crashed from an all-time record of over 1 million,sometime in 2006, to barely 560k now, and still falling. Further, Canada and Australia combined naturalize same number of citizens as US does. But the combined population of Canada and Australia is barely 40 million.

Still, Canada doesn't complain that due to this, every other citizen would be a Indian or a Chinese.

I may sound naive, but the Whites who came to the US who never really original inhabitants of the US;they were Europeans;the original inhabitants are native Americans, and their numbers, my best guess, would be less than 10 million. So the original inhabitants are easily outnumbered by close to 240m whites and, less so, by 30m blacks. So, if they wanted free movement in America, nothing less should be expected by other citizens of the world, the so called Chinese and Indians.

 

[rishab dhar]

They also tend to be need blind so those who get in and cannot afford it, go for free.

Last time I checked, none of the ivy league schools gave a free ride for an MBA, and very few gave for studying law. Also, last time I checked, none/extremely low number of schools gave a free ride for MFE/MSF. Also, for engineering, unless you are exceptionally bright, you wont get any aid "at-least until PhD".

To many Europeans (mainland) it comes as shock, when they hear that you have to pay for studying even a PhD (UK-people have to pay even for PhD).

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

Harvard pays out of their endowment for anyone whose parents make anything less than $180k I believe. Considering that their endowment performed spectacularly aside from the drawdown in the financial crisis, they can do that, especially because their endowment is so huge.

So yeah...the financial aid is there...but even with it, colleges still cost a ridiculous amount.

 

[Anthony DeAngelis]

Why on earth would a top school give a free MBA to someone? This is not an essential degree. At this level, need is merit based.

Canada has a much smaller population than the USA does. They also do not have large scale illegal immigration. Comparing Canadian immigration to the US is far from relevant.

I think people are confusing better with "teach better". The education you get at most schools will be on par with top schools. I mean c'mon, history is history, math is math. The difference is that a degree from Harvard is known around the world as a sign of quality. The best professors want to be there, the best students want to go there, on and on. This is why it is better.

A Timex tells better time than a Rolex, yet having and owning a Rolex is a lot different than a Timex. And yes, I realize this statement will get a bunch of snarky responses, but the fact is, in general, the Rolex signals quality where as the timex signals maybe utilitarian functionality.

Same thing with schools.

Ultimately, nothing will change. These universities are private and even the public ones are moving away from government money. 1,000 years from now, people will still be making stupid decisions and other people will be crying out "the government should save them".

I suppose in Cuba, China and the former USSR, no one ever got suckered, coned, screwed over or made a dumb decision. Only in the USA are people duped into making bad decisions.

I also find it funny that student loans are vilified now, but years ago only the rich could afford to attend school. Now everyone has access to school funding and now THAT is a problem. If everything was made free tomorrow, people would still find something to complain about. Maybe that effort should be focused on educating oneself and making informed decisions.

 

[Anthony DeAngelis]

http://www.baruch.cuny.edu/tuition/

$2,400 a semester/ 5K per year. 20K all in for an UG degree at Baruch, a solid university in NYC where there are countless job opportunities.

How is 20K for a 4 year degree expensive?

http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm

~$40K for a UCLA undergrad. In one of the most expensive states in the union. The ROI on 40K of education is phenomenal.

http://www.admissions.duke.edu/faq/indexf222.html?iQuestionID=526 &iCategoryID=0

160K for a Duke degree. They meet 100% of financial aid for those in need. If you are a NC resident you can get grants, scholarships and aid.

Good schools, different price points, individual choice.

 

[Anthony DeAngelis]

Last time I checked, none of the ivy league schools gave a free ride for an MBA, and very few gave for studying law. Also, last time I checked, none/extremely low number of schools gave a free ride for MFE/MSF. Also, for engineering, unless you are exceptionally bright, you wont get any aid "at-least until PhD".

To many Europeans (mainland) it comes as shock, when they hear that you have to pay for studying even a PhD (UK-people have to pay even for PhD).

Nothing is free. You might not pay for a PhD, but everyone else subsidizes it for you. Don't think for one moment that it is free. Foreign students also have to pay full price.

Too many Europeans think things are free because the true cost is hidden and obscured. No free lunch.