Who Owns the Future?

[bigbadwolf]

From the ever-controversial Pat Buchanan:

Sixty-five nations competed. The Chinese swept the board.

The schools of Shanghai-China finished first in math, reading and science. Hong Kong-China was third in math and science. Singapore, a city-state dominated by overseas Chinese, was second in math, fourth in science.

Only Korea, Japan and Finland were in the hunt.

 

[ThinkDifferent]

Russia

 

[euroazn]

Russia

Sovetski Soyuz

 

[DominiConnor]

I have to assume the Shanghai results are somehow the results of corruption because the PRC exam system is more corrupt than....
At this point I realised that you can't honestly say that PRC exams are are as corrupt as...
One is forced to disrespect an exam system by saying "it is almost as corrupt as the PRC". I trust Nigerian results more than those from the PRC.

Singapore and HK can partly be attributed to the fact that the Chinese quarter of the human race has been subject to brutal distillation, and that the average has been improved by the elimination of the weakest. But they also have excellent education systems, and like all the highly successful ones, faith is either wholly removed, or the local faith has been bought off by allowing it a quota of children it can use as sex toys without excessive attention by the police.

Ethnic Chinese do well pretty much everywhere because of this, in the US they even partly compensate for a pathologically dysfunctional high school system.

Obviously being both American and a born again Christian, Pat Robertson can't cope with an evolutionary argument, and being a white American Christian it's frankly impressive that he can write whole sentences, I guess that level of intellectual leadership is why he is so widely followed.

There are also cultural factors, which have evolved along with the genetics. One observes parental support for education is so high that you could make an argument that it is oppressive, certainly some of the kids think so. Education has served and protected Chinese people from many of the bad things that have come their way, typically from other Chinese, but from others as well, so that's pretty rational.
PB says:
We do not know how to close the gap in reading, science and math between Anglo and Asian students and black and Hispanic students.
This is spectacularly false, indeed there is no major problem in America that is easier to solve, and one to which almost everyone knows how to solve.
1. This is America, put up cash rewards for getting kids to read. More kids reading = more money.
Trust me it will be fixed very very quickly.

2. Extend the legislation that stops troops joining unions to schools. Abolish them. Personally I'd imprison the leaders, but at the very least they need to be stopped. US teaching unions are vastly more dangerous than any military power to the US.

3. No one to be allowed to attend any form of school sport until and unless they have attained the average for their year group.

4. Abolish university sports teams.

5. Remove any law that in any way gives anyone of any kind any veto of what kids are 'allowed' to read. My kids have access to gas warfare manuals, Mein Kampf, the Koran, postgrad math textbooks, and Asimov's Lecherous Limericks, arguably the rudest book ever written. Your kids aren't even allowed to read books with 'damn' in them. mine will win, yours will lose.

6. Commission the geniuses at Marvel, DC comics et al to write text books. Comics are chosen by kids, books are chosen by adults, you want more reading ? supply the stuff they want to read.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Obviously being both American and a born again Christian, Pat Robertson can't cope with an evolutionary argument, and being a white American Christian it's frankly impressive that he can write whole sentences, I guess that level of intellectual leadership is why he is so widely followed.

Pat Buchanan, not Pat Robertson. Buchanan and just about every other racialist do make evolutionary arguments for differences in intelligence among ethnic groups. Just like you are doing for the Chinese. But this isn't palatable in PC USA.

There are also cultural factors, which have evolved along with the genetics.

Chicken and egg argument: what came first?

PB says:
We do not know how to close the gap in reading, science and math between Anglo and Asian students and black and Hispanic students.
This is spectacularly false, indeed there is no major problem in America that is easier to solve, and one to which almost everyone knows how to solve.
1. This is America, put up cash rewards for getting kids to read. More kids reading = more money.
Trust me it will be fixed very very quickly.

Already been tried. Doesn't work. Steve Sailer has an interesting essay on the topic:

Ending the black-white disparity has been the Holy Grail of education reform since LBJ. Considering all the rewards that would befall any educator who could achieve it, you might assume that absence of evidence after all these decades is evidence of absence.

Another even more useful essay by Rushton here:

Taken together, our results indicate no significant Black gain in educational achievement for over 50 years. When evidence in favor of Black gains is presented, it typically rests on insufficient sampling and highly selective reporting.

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[euroazn]

in the US they even partly compensate for a pathologically dysfunctional high school system

As a current student, I have to admit it sucks bull's testicles.

 

[bigbadwolf]

As a current student, I have to admit it sucks bull's testicles.

Don't you get a choice of Advanced Placement classes? Or the option of some college classes at a nearby community college or university?

 

[TraderJoe]

Those Engineering dudes from Tsinghua are pretty smart. They are like the IIT Computer Science dudes.

 

[Yike Lu]

I went to a program where I took university classes exclusively for my last 2 years of high school.

 

[eng]

I think the American system still produces certain percentage of exceptional students. And in terms of overall skills, I would rank US grads much higher than any international grads.

 

[TraderJoe]

Yeah the students at Harvard and Stanford, etc are pretty smart, well-rounded, etc. But for sheer concentration of heavy-duty brain power, I really doubt that they can match those Engineering grads from tsinghua or the Computer Science grads from IIT. Those people are just amazing.

 

[bigbadwolf]

I think the American system still produces certain percentage of exceptional students. And in terms of overall skills, I would rank US grads much higher than any international grads.

I'm not sure it's the system; I think rather it's outsiders and their families exploiting every possibility the system affords -- AP classes, college courses while in school, IB programs, and so on. If anything, I'd say the system is inflexible and bureucratic, and designed for mediocrity. The emphasis is on slow learners rather than pushing the top five per cent to the utmost.

 

[euroazn]

Don't you get a choice of Advanced Placement classes? Or the option of some college classes at a nearby community college or university?

I was in a magnet middle school, got accepted into a magnet high school (but declined and went to one of the "top" public high schools in the country... we're talking Blue-Ribbon.)

I've taken AP Calc Freshman Year, and 9 others my first three years of high school alone. 3 college classes beyond the AP Level......

But even AP is a joke. Consider Comp Sci, or Calculus (god forbid I mention Stat, which isn't even calculus based... wtf!?!?)

APs ARE A JOKE. It's no wonder I got 5's on every exam...
Education in the US is based on tests with very high curves. 60% in AP Calc = 5. Hooray! We are achievers!

 

[Stephie]

5. Remove any law that in any way gives anyone of any kind any veto of what kids are 'allowed' to read. My kids have access to gas warfare manuals, Mein Kampf, the Koran, postgrad math textbooks, and Asimov's Lecherous Limericks, arguably the rudest book ever written. Your kids aren't even allowed to read books with 'damn' in them. mine will win, yours will lose.

The First Amendment should definitely prevail in the area of printed works. As far as what intellectual hating right wing fascists can say... doesn't matter, they aren't for equal rights in the first place.

 

[Yike Lu]

Education in the US is based on tests with very high curves. 60% in AP Calc = 5. Hooray! We are achievers!

You realize you're talking to BBW who I presume is a Brit, where a First (A equivalent) is 70%+.

I get your point though. Even though I took university classes my last two years, I slept through half my classes on the way to a 4.0

 

[DominiConnor]

I share some of BBW's scepticism about the idea that it is "the system", but I don't care.
The system is the way we deal with the problem.
For all I know, there may be genes that enable ethnic Chinese to learn maths better, but that doesn't matter either. What matters is how you deal with it.

I find I have to reject the converse idea that the genes of black people hinder their grasp of reading. Not out of political correctness, since some of you may have spotted that I am not very PC, but because I know that people of recent African ancestry have vastly greater genetic diversity than white people, much more. You might get a few % that way, but not the clusterfuck we see now.
That's why I (and many black leaders) see competitive school sport as having a terrible effect on educational outcomes for black boys, and should be cut hard.

Amongst the books my kids have access to are the ones on human biology, including the ones on contraception, and that is a big thing that hinders black kids since paedophiles have a major say in US sex education. I would have been a shit parent at 15, don't think black kids are any different.

One experiment I'd like to see try is exponential fines for heavy drug use.
By that I mean role models are rich, so fine them half their wealth.
Also, there is the bone crazy idea of allowing states to run education. Does it really shock anyone that schools with poor kids often coloured get less funds and rotten teachers who can't be fired because of unions ?

 

[eng]

Being a foreign person (India) in the US, I think the US system still produces one of the best well rounded graduates. I personally think the main reason for communities like African Americans to be not doing so well is linked to racism that is still highly prevalent in the society. Small cultural/social things can make big differences. I see racism everywhere in the US, but especially in the mid-west, not much formally or legally, but on a day to day social basis at all levels in the society. I would guess that it must be very hard for any minority community people to grow up in this sort of environment. But the US educational system, industries and universities are excellent and overall the best in the world. These are the centers of innovation where new things have been coming from, while the IIT/Tsinghua grads have been busy scoring 10/10 in examinations.

 

[TraderJoe]

Innovation used to occur in the USA because those super-smart tsinghua grads used to come and do PhD and work hard for low wages. Now they just come to Harvard / Stanford / Wharton for MBA and sometimes PhD. Then as soon as they get the degree they are on the next flight back to Shanghai / Beijing / Hongkong / Singapore.

 

[helpteye]

I think there is absolutely no logical reason why intellect and race should ever be mentioned in the same sentence. Any reasonable person would know that the majority of american-born blacks start so low on the economic ladder, they rarely have time to think about school. Consider the obvious fact that, very poor whites in the US (for instance those that live in remote country areas) are just as unimpressive as the average african-american in school. Suggesting that ethnic chinese are possibly predisposed to being able to understand mathematics better is an irresponsible and rather stupid statement. If a country has 1.3 billion (India too) and they are all trying to get out of poverty via education, it is statistically likely that at least 1 million would be very successful. There are more chinese than any other race on the planet, Hence (DUH) it is likely that a significant percentage of intelligent people would be chinese. No other race has been subjected to what african americans have been through, so until any other group is, then the unfair comparison should not be made. Take, native americans for instance. No one suggests that they are brilliant at mathematics, or science or anything like that. That is because they were almost completely obliterated by Europeans. Compare groups in similar situation and eradicate idiotic (sometimes unknowingly racist) statements. If you teach 6 kids from 6 different races mathematics for the same length of time, at the same age, and make sure they all live in the same type of environment, and have the same level of support, and the same level of constant discrimination/ or not, then you may be surprised that there may not be that much of a difference. The majority of the chinese population can not do basic algebra, just like everywhere else. The difference is that they have a larger group to start with. When you want to mention wide gaps between Asians and Whites vs Blacks and Hispanics, consider the most obvious things. Economic differences and obvious discrimination. I leave you with this fact from wiki:

"Africans have the highest educational attainment rates of any immigrant group in the United States. Estimates indicate that a significant percentage of black students at elite universities are African or the children of African immigrants, a notable example of this is Barack Obama."

To verify: google, 'most educated immigrant group'. The difference is Africans that come to study here can easily ignore obvious racism because they know they can easily go back home later. This has a direct effect on how they perform in school. Additionally, they always have both parents in the home, supporting them. If they were born in the US, they would be hearing people like on this forum (unintentionally) suggesting blacks are less intelligent, or retards like Pat Bucchanan.

I do think that educated people, like those on this forum and myself, should readily shy away from endorsing or even repeating such statements.

 

[Yike Lu]

You are having a knee-jerk overreaction and are apparently arguing (poorly) against nobody.

There are easily measurable physical attributes that vary in statistically significant ways across different races, things such as height, limb/torso length ratio, proportion of Type IIB muscle fibers. Why would we assume that intelligence is different? Intelligence after all derives from a physical construct, the brain.

You make a fair statement that we can't ignore environmental variables and I certainly agree. Beliefs (racist attitudes being a subset) also have an effect on performance on tests, there have been psychological studies.

I don't know what the true distribution for intelligence is across races, but it's another thing entirely to ignore the possibility that it is different. There is no reason to bury our heads in the sand about this, as that only prevents an informed intelligent discussion, which is the best bet to actually change things.