Legalize illegal immigration, YES or NO

[alain]

Why you did not flee to a country closer to yours, study there (you probably had your degrees already) then come to the US legally?

did you read the part about not being able to leave?

You know what my parents did? They WAITED until things changed to come in legally. They didn't cut the line.

People have been waiting for 50+ years. My country is the exception but I understand why people try to get here illegally.

 

[Abdel]

No worries. It is simplistic because the solutions you are providing are very simplistic as well. I'm trying to make a case that is not as black and white as you want it to be (maybe my approach is wrong). Sometimes is extremely hard for the illegals to survive in their own countries. I just want you to have a little of an open mind. How bad do you think it is in the illegals' countries that they are willing to risk their lives to make it here?

My point is, life is like a pyramid that you can climb.

There is those who climb it one rock at at time and hurt their hands (legals) and those who climb on their back (i.e.illegals).

Life is no candy store. Not everyone can make it and we have to accept it. As we accept to kill others living beings to eat them.

If you say that you have to protect life, then it should be equal to all living beings = you have to turn into at least a vegetalian.

But if you claim that the human life is more valuable, that is only a primitive reflex of the 'protection the clan'.

If for you, life is all equal, then you should have my approach to immigration.
But if you have the 'primitive reflex' approach :D, then your approach is the way to go .

It might sounds cold but to me, at this stage of my life, this is how I see things. It will probably change with time but for now I'm sticking to it:p

 

[bigbadwolf]

It is simplistic because the solutions you are providing are very simplistic as well. I'm trying to make a case that is not as black and white as you want it to be (maybe my approach is wrong). Sometimes is extremely hard for the illegals to survive in their own countries. I just want you to have a little of an open mind. How bad do you think it is in the illegals' countries that they are willing to risk their lives to make it here?

It is complex. The boundary line between what is legal and illegal keeps changing with time, seems to be arbitrary, and determined by political pressure. The illegals are wanted in the US because of the combination of skills they offer and the low wages and bad working conditions they're willing to accept. The US largely turns a blind eye to this because it wants the labor -- but wants that labor to be legally insecure and hence unwilling to organise oir fight for better pay and working conditions.

Much of the "debate" is racially tinged -- though no-one will say it out loud. Thus, for example, in the past Irish people have come and settled illegally -- but they are never the subject of immigration debates. The subject is brown-skinned Mestizos from Mexico. Not saying the racial tinging is right or wrong -- just pointing it out. The reality is that those opposed to "illegal immigration" are adamently opposed to all non-white immigration. A politician like Pat Buchanan might occasionally speak the truth when, with regard to the immigration debate, he asked, "Do we want to consider ourselves a white country?" Again, not saying whether it's right or wrong -- just pointing out the hidden dimensions.

To the extent that it's not racially tinged, there are legitimate questions about how many people the country can absorb. By mid-century there will be 400 million+ in the USA. I don't think there is enough land, water, and infrastructure resources for them all to live the way Americans were living, say, in the '50s and '60s. The USA is gradually being "Brazilianised" -- a white minority at the apex, and with endemically high unemployment, and disparities in wealth and income that now converge towards those in Latin America. Things like shanty towns will emerge in due course. So perhaps all immigration can be questioned.

On a side note, it's interesting to see the numbers of Congressmen and administration officials who have employed illegals as cooks, gardeners, and nannies. Lots of hypocrisy to go around.

 

[Abdel]

... wow. I don't even know where to begin with this. Perhaps a good first question would be whether you actually know anyone in the USA illegally? ... my money is on "no."

1. How much lower do my taxes have to be until you mow my lawn for me?
2. This is the first good point you've made in pages of text lol. I agree, but immigration reform has to go MUCH further to be realistic.
3. ... WHAT?!? lol you must be joking. I have yet to meet a person in the USA that came to this country for a "welfare magnet" lol.

Ok, you just lost some money, I 'knew' someone who were in the US illegaly. Matter fact, he got deported back to Tanzania few months ago lol.

1. A concrete example of how taxes and regulations kill legal jobs: In connecticut, if you employ 50 people, you'll be ok, but if you hire a 51th employe then new taxes and regulations kicks in. That is why businesses are scared to hire more legally when they hit the 50 employees mark. Also, employees have a million ways to sue their boss. So basicly, an employer will do anything not to hire legally people unless he has no choice.

2. My 1st good point, really :D? I did not see the killer counter-arguments that knocked me out yet =)

3. If an illegal goes to the hospital, he will get treated = ''free'' healthcare on the back of hard working taxpayers.
If illegals knew they couldn't have a thing (no free heatlhcare etc.), trust me, they wouldn't come.

 

[Abdel]

1. You didn't answer my question... and my grass is getting rather high

What makes hiring americans too expansive? Again, taxes and regulations.

The days of ''these jobs are not for americans'' are over. With all these unemployed, they'll do it.

For the tanzanian, he was not a friend, but a person I knew via a friend :D.

And for the healthcare, that is only one aspect of the portrait. If illegals know they cain't get anything for free (no healthcare, no citizenship for their new born kids nor for them, no free education etc), they wouldn't come.

As I said, if they study in their home country and get their degrees, then they can come in legally.

If not, then they have to assume their choices.

 

[alain]

As I said, if they study in their home country and get their degrees, then they can come in legally.

You are making a HUGE assumption. Sometimes is not possible to study.

 

[Abdel]

You are making a HUGE assumption. Sometimes is not possible to study.

In rare exceptional cases sure, but in 2011, compared to the 1960's, anyone can study if he wants to.

 

[Abdel]

Wrong on both counts. Americans want American-sized salaries for their effort. The day Americans start working for below minimum wage...

Wrong again. You are ignoring the reason why these people come - that $3 an hour is a ton of money for them. If you think that these people are doing an in depth analysis of their options you could not be more wrong. They don't even have the resources to do such research!

The "American Dream" is that you come, you work your ass off, and you get decent compensation... not that you come and we'll give you free healthcare and university education. That's Sweden.

Oh, so with the unemployment raising daily, unemployed americans are ''too good'' for certain type of jobs? With bills coming in, putting food on the table etc...they're still too good? Maybe that was true during the bubble economy days but those days are over. As someone would say, the party is over for the United States.

Well, sure $3/hour is alot for them, but if they know that, if they get sick they'll die due to no healthcare, they won't go. Maybe some but they won't make it and others will know.

And for the what is left to the ''American Dream'' it is that you come in LEGALLY, and then, of course, you'll have the opportunity to prove yourself

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Economical forces would accomplish more than any legislation would ever hope.

American census figures analyzed by the nonpartisan Pew Hispanic Center also show that the illegal Mexican population in the United States has shrunk and that fewer than 100,000 illegal border-crossers and visa-violators from Mexico settled in the United States in 2010, down from about 525,000 annually from 2000 to 2004. Although some advocates for more limited immigration argue that the Pew studies offer estimates that do not include short-term migrants, most experts agree that far fewer illegal immigrants have been arriving in recent years.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/07/06/world/americas/immigration.html

 

[Abdel]

The salary of illegals is not enough to maintain the non-illegal lifestyle. Don't forget (did you know in the first place?) - these people live 6 families to a house for a reason - it takes that many of their incomes to afford the rent.

... are you serious?

I mean at this point you're arguing for the dismantling of the GNP of the USA as a solution to immigration...

As I said, the solution lies in lowering the burden on employers to hire legals.

And as this economic recession is turning into a depression, more and more families will have to live together to cut expanses and then, they'll want those jobs that only illegals do.

And at that point, it will mean that taxes and regulations will still be high = tensions between legals & illegals.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Economical forces would accomplish more than any legislation would ever hope.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/07/06/world/americas/immigration.html

Most of the construction jobs illegal Mexicans were doing have gone. In other areas -- e.g., agriculture -- American citizens are now willing to do the low-pay backbreaking work only illegal workers were willing to do a few years earlier. And immigration enforcement has become more rigorous as officials crack down on what formerly they turned a blind eye towards.

No-one here is talking about emigration from the USA. Some of my American friends have managed to find jobs and resident visas abroad. Others are actively looking. A couple of books have been written on it, one here.

 

[efajardo]

In rare exceptional cases sure, but in 2011, compared to the 1960's, anyone can study if he wants to.

You don't know anything. Really? Anyone? Where? Have you been in a poor country? I know for a fact that in Colombia (my country) not anyone can study if he wants to.

 

[Abdel]

You don't know anything. Really? Anyone? Where? Have you been in a poor country? I know for a fact that in Colombia (my country) not anyone can study if he wants to.

If I been in a poor country? Actually I lived in one and went through a civil war for +10 years.

 

[Anthony DeAngelis]

Abel is 100% correct. A nation without laws is a failed nation. If you come into this nation illegally and work illegally you will be caught. This isn't something that you can wait out and hope changes. Millions of people have come into this country legally and illegal immigrants insult all Americans.

If you want to be part of this country you need to step up and respect it. Mexico might not be as great as the USA is, but it is a lot better than many other countries.

 

[boneil]

As far as the dream act goes... do the parents get deported and the 10 yr old son goes into foster care?

How does that work? If the parents get to stay then every illegal alien would just steal a baby and sneak into the country with it, then use the dream act to protect themselves from deportation.

Immigration reform does not necessitate any sorts of amnesty.

 

[boneil]

Oh, so with the unemployment raising daily, unemployed americans are ''too good'' for certain type of jobs? With bills coming in, putting food on the table etc...they're still too good? Maybe that was true during the bubble economy days but those days are over. As someone would say, the party is over for the United States.

Well, sure $3/hour is alot for them, but if they know that, if they get sick they'll die due to no healthcare, they won't go. Maybe some but they won't make it and others will know.

And for the what is left to the ''American Dream'' it is that you come in LEGALLY, and then, of course, you'll have the opportunity to prove yourself

I honestly believe that most (read: almost all) unemployed Americans wouldn't do the type of $3 dollar an hour work that some illegals do in south Florida (Colbert did a few segments on it, and it has been pretty widely covered by "investigative media" i.e. 60 minutes etc.). I dunno how long you've been in this country, but people are damn lazy and entitled. Hell, I wouldn't do that type of work if I was unemployed and starving. I'd rather be homeless and beg for money (in manhattan you can pull like 100 dollars a day, way better than $3 an hour)

In fact, illegal immigrants should probably start hitching rides to cities without too many homeless and start begging there. Stossel did a segment on it, he put a beard on and pulled like $80 in half a day sitting by St. Patrick's Cathedral in midtown.

edit: don't tell any illegal immigrants this info, I don't want to start a mass homeless movement

 

[Dwsmith]

I am not sure if this has been said in the thread, but there are 10,000 immigration investment program visa's per year. So there is a quick way that is legal. An individual has to loan the govt either 500k or 1mm depending on the investment. The individual receives a temporary green card, gets dividend payments, and after 5 years get a green card and can withdraw their money or live it in.

 

[Abdel]

I am not sure if this has been said in the thread, but there are 10,000 immigration investment program visa's per year. So there is a quick way that is legal. An individual has to loan the govt either 500k or 1mm depending on the investment. The individual receives a temporary green card, gets dividend payments, and after 5 years get a green card and can withdraw their money or live it in.

Same program in Canada.

 

[DominiConnor]

I pick the idea here that some favour deterrence, and to me that seems to be a serious attack on the quality of American people.

To be a deterrent, one must ensure that illegal immigrants face not only worse consequences from being illegal, but that also the probability of being caught multiplied by the "cost" is greater. We're quants here chaps, does everyone follow this ?

Essentially all of Latin America is endemically corrupt, with human rights violations that even the citizens of Alabama would regard as horrifying. Large sections have no rule of law and across the continent rape is used as a police interrogation technique, and the number of unarmed citizens killed by government forces is comparable to some areas defined as war zones.

Property is routinely confiscated, and various drug gangs not only impose their own rule, but the government is so crap that the drug lords are often seen as the good guys. Anywhere where any serious number of people freely choose to join a Communist party can be reasonably defined to be failing.

Economic opportunities are worse in most of Latin America than in Detroit, a city so wretched by American standards that some serious people worry about it being abandoned and/or becoming unviable.

The USA would have to be worse than that.

Also what one is forced to refer to as "the right" haven't really thought through enforcement, the "probability" term above.

I am one of the last pure bred Celts, the only truly white people on the planet, most other so-called "white" people are pink (like the English and Germans), or yellow (scandanavians). However I find that after a week in Spanish sunshine and a bit of facial hair Spanish people regularly address me as if I was Spanish, which hits the issue that I don't know the language. Fact is that to a cop from the Southern states I'd look hispanic, as would a huge % of people who have no known hispanic ancestry. Thus Americans would face serious harassment if you are going to filter people properly.
That means ID cards and fines if you don't carry it at all times. It means that your kid might be denied hospital treatment if she had a sun tan and given the imprecision of the rules we will see a serious spike in the number of the time the police break down the door of "legal" citizens because they screw up. That's not a decline in competence, but if you tell the police to arrest more illegals they will move down the lists from "certainly illegal" through "probabably illegal" to "has a moustache and a sun tan".

Also this will cost a vast pile of money, which tax are the proponents of tougher enforcement going to increase ?
Fine the illegals ?
You reckon you can get real money from illegal field hands ?

 

[DominiConnor]

"don't tell any illegal immigrants this info, I don't want to start a mass homeless movement"

There are relatively efficient informal networks for illegals to share information and of course they watch TV.
They know that begging is an option, they don't want to do it which to me is a commendable work ethic.

Here we hit the deep reason for anti-immigrant views.

Immigrants, legal or illegal are the output of a filtering process. If you're lazy, complacent, have some physical disability or are just plain stupid, you tend to stay where you are put. (Full disclosure: I was born, went to high school and university and now live and work, all within a day's walk)
They what one might casually lump together as good characteristics for citizens. If you're nicer to them than the shit hole they come from, odds are they will be loyal, often more loyal than the longer established population. In both the British and American armies one observes this fact even though immigration is drawn from rather different populations and backgrounds.

In short, by most criteria set by Americans themselves, immigrants are more useful citizens than they are.

With all due modesty, we are the smarter end of of the population, better educated and would regard "average" earnings as a failure scenario. We not only have opportunities superior to the general population, but in nearly all cases better than our parents and most of our peers at high school.

We're not normal
Average people are a lot more average and I think I've produced a decent argument that they have something to fear from immigration. People like us know that immigration is good for the economy and our differences around here are almost wholly on which immigrants should come in and under what terms.

But we gain from a general increase in wealth and are smart enough to know that an 0.5% increase in GDP is something hugely worth having.

But imagine the sort of person who has rarely left his state and never left the USA, scraped graduation from high school, who thinks nitrogen is a poison gas, watches Fox news and works in a near minimum wage job. That's a good % of the US population.

He has a job, but only just and like far too many Americans far too few portable skills to get another.

You say to him that immigration curbs will knock 0.5% off GDP, he will think that's a good deal, since he will feel that he has a >0.5% chance of losing his job. Objectively, that's not entirely irrational.

This is why there is an American political movement against "the elite" which as far as I know exists nowhere else, and the only historical example would appear to be the Chinese cultural revolution.
In the UK, 2 of our last 3 Conservative prime ministers were Oxford graduates, and unlike GW Bush, didn't get there because their dad knew the right people. The German PM Angela Merkel is a conservative and has a PhD in quantum chemistry, (Thatcher was Chemistry from Oxford).
Merkel was at one point minister for nuclear safety, Palin would do that role as well as Home Simpson.

This allows non-Americans to understand why a creature like Sarah Palin is so successful, she's trusted because she's stupid and because she understands no economics.