COMPARE CMU MSCF (NYC) v/s Berkeley MFE v/s CMU PhD Math Finance

[eager_to_learn]

if your goal isn't a sell-side trading or quant role, I would explore other degrees.

So lets say if someone is interested in asset management or buy side research or prop trading or anything else which is buy side, CMU is not the place to be?? Or would you say that MFE / MSCF (or any variation of that name) itself is not the right degree? (and if so, then what IS the right degree ???????)

 

[Math Andrew]

So lets say if someone is interested in asset management or buy side research or prop trading or anything else which is buy side, CMU is not the place to be?? Or would you say that MFE / MSCF (or any variation of that name) itself is not the right degree? (and if so, then what IS the right degree ???????)

That's simply not true.
We do have interviews with prop trading firms and asset management firms.

 

[neoz]

Look, I don't want to burst anyone's dream here. I'm not saying it's not possible to get interviews with prop trading firms or asset management firms with a MSCF, it's just the odds are much more in your favor for a sell-side role.

Take a look at http://www.tepper.cmu.edu/master-in...ners/recruiting-partners-2011-2012/index.aspx

I count 27/55 that went to a sell-side bank. The rest are scattered across a variety of areas, including prop shops and asset management firms. My point is there's a reason that banks make up practically half of the placements, since they have formal recruiting programs and take X number of students every year. The other positions are sporadic and will change from year-to-year.

If you look at the list and see a few people that went to a particular prop shop and think well that could be you, I wouldn't be quick to make that assumption. It really depends on your individual background. A lot of those algorithmic trading roles go to people with CS/Eng/Math backgrounds prior to MSCF. For example, if you're an econ major, I wouldn't expect to get very far in a Jane Street or Getco interview.

For asset management, I think the odds are much more favorable than a prop shop. Sure, there are courses that are irrelevant for asset management, i.e. Sto Calc, but there's a good mix of other courses that would make you competitive for those kinds of jobs. Just looking at that list, you can see that there's only 1 person per asset mgmt firm. It's going to be a tight pool and those firms might not hire every single year from MSCF. However, I think you could see the number of buy-side placements go up as banks cut back on their hiring, primarily because the MSCF recruiting team will have no choice but to target more marketing there.

 

[Math Andrew]

Well, I agree with you on that.
Many prop trading firms just require you to solve brainteasers for their interviews. No finance knowledge is required.
But, if you do have a proper quant background and enroll in one of the top programs, then you'll have more possibilities of getting interviews, both with the sell and the buy side. This of course applies to other degrees as well - the ones you have mentioned.

 

[unhappy_mscf]

Take a look at http://www.tepper.cmu.edu/master-in...ners/recruiting-partners-2011-2012/index.aspx

The most important part of the page is at the top where they say 59/69 have accepted offers 3 months after graduation. Nice, $120k and 18 months down the drain for 10 students out of 69.

 

[neoz]

10 does seems like a high number to me but it's definitely possible in this hiring environment. While not having something for 3 months is not ideal, I think it's understandable given the current market. You have massive layoffs on the sell-side. You can't expect it to be like the golden years where people had multiple offers before graduation.

This just gives more credence to my earlier point. If the traditional avenues of hiring, i.e. banks, are cutting back, it's not that easy to find substitute placements elsewhere as companies that are going to hire 4-5 students at a time don't just appear out of thin air. I know Rick and the professors go on road trips to market MSCF to new employers and that's probably why the numbers aren't even worse, but there's a limit to what they can do. If you think 2011-2012 was bad, imagine how the 2008 class probably felt.

So blame it on the economy but you can't honestly think MSCF is like a scam.

 

[mfegrad]

but there's a limit to what they can do.

this.

a lot of it is on the students, as well. most come from environments where getting good grades has always been enough. newsflash: that won't cut it anymore. many students don't follow the markets at all, couldn't give you an investment pitch (for any product), and say that they want to trade without knowing anything about trading or what products they want to trade and why.

cmu teaches you a lot and brings employers to students, but the students have to close. cmu can't drag you across the finish line.

granted, some students might just have a string of bad luck, but i'd be willing to bet a good amount of money that those cases are far less common than students going into interviews and dinging themselves within the first few minutes.

 

[unhappy_mscf]

I know, MSCF students don't know how to get jobs, especially compared to MBA students, which have better numbers. I can't wait until this years numbers come out.

 

[ruruouni]

With regards to MSCF vs Berkeley I was in a similar situation last year and I chose CMU and posted some information I gathered here :
https://www.quantnet.com/threads/cmu-mscf-pittsburg-vs-berkeley-mfe.6326/#post-90045

 

[babinu]

this.

a lot of it is on the students, as well. most come from environments where getting good grades has always been enough. newsflash: that won't cut it anymore. many students don't follow the markets at all, couldn't give you an investment pitch (for any product), and say that they want to trade without knowing anything about trading or what products they want to trade and why.

cmu teaches you a lot and brings employers to students, but the students have to close. cmu can't drag you across the finish line.

granted, some students might just have a string of bad luck, but i'd be willing to bet a good amount of money that those cases are far less common than students going into interviews and dinging themselves within the first few minutes.

Agree with this here. CMU is doing a lot by bringing employers and preparing students. The rest of it is on the students.

 

[unhappy_mscf]

If you think 2011-2012 was bad, imagine how the 2008 class probably felt.

2008 was only 2% worse than 2011. I guess not much has changed since then so I think students can imagine how that class felt.

 

[wzglljp]

" The majority of the people go to S&T or quant programs at major banks." This isn't true.

depends on how you define majority, but CMU did has the higher percentage of student going to S&T and FO quant compare to other MFE program. Through me stat if I am wrong. Do not quote my sentence and throw back question mark!!!

 

[eager_to_learn]

Hi All,

Thank you very much for sharing your opinion. I think one factor that goes in favor of cmu is that

(a) Location = NYC
(b) classes are in the evening -- from 5:30-8:30 pm
(c) all lectures are video recorded, so if you miss a class, you can cover up by watching the video lecture

The way I am looking at this, is that cmu provides you the opportunity to network with people on the street (you can meet them for coffee while they are at work, since you are in NYC + you don't have classes going on during the daytime). on the other hand, Berkeley is far from NYC, so networking is not physically possible.

Can any cmu students comment whether this is any advantage in the real world?

Thanks guys !!

 

[neoz]

I think the advantage of NY is minimal, if any. People usually don't have time to meet students for coffee and personally, I'd find it over-the-top. If you have specific questions, you can just send an email and people will reply at their convenience. Don't be surprised if people don't even reply to your emails, so you can imagine that a meet-up would be even less likely. Unless you're well-polished with MBA-level networking skills, that meetup for coffee strategy could also backfire on you if you do something stupid.

I think the main advantage is less travel time for your interviews and/or company visits. Living in NY could be more fun also, that is if you manage to find some free time. Other than that, I don't see much of a difference.

 

[waterForEle]

Hi, I may be the first one here vote for PhD program. I know you are not sure whether you want to go into Finance, however Mathematical Finance is more math than Finance in my opinion. From your maths background, I think you will do well in PhD program and enjoyed another 4-5 years relaxed time (appear younger than people working in banks, lolx). After PhD, you still can join the industry.

It pays more working in financial industry. However not many people can go far to make it to manager or someone who really matters. Of oucrse it depends on personal preference. PhD + some industry experience may lead to a MFE professor in the future!

 

[unhappy_mscf]

It gives me no pleasure to report that 2013 recruiting numbers are up for MSCF. They are worse than last years and average salary is down too. Almost 1 in 5 students don't have jobs and half the class that do have jobs will be making less than $88k.

Neoz and I actually agree on a lot of what goes on in the program, but we drew different conclusions. His/her view seems to be more of a "end justifies the means." I am skeptical of this, but especially when the "end" is no longer there. Some may say its the economy, but I think its the opposite. I think the only reason the program had acceptable numbers previously is because the bull market was covering up all the shortcomings of the MSCF program. I'm glad we exposed some real issues with the program, but we barely scratched the surface. I hope anyone who decides to matriculate does his/her own research outside of this forum. I'll admit I did not do enough of this and I regret it. I find it very difficult to recommend this program to anyone.

 

[mfegrad]

again, some of it is the economy and a lot of it is on the students themselves. since 1/3 or more of the class is most likely fresh out of college (if previous years are any guidance), that should absolutely lower the starting salary.

if i purchased a honda accord and expected it to seat fifteen and fly, i'd also have a difficult time recommending it. the program isn't perfect, but your issue is with yourself, if you're truly being honest.

 

[eager_to_learn]

Couple of Qs for CMU current students / alumni --

1. Do you have lectures every day of the week ? How many hours of lectures do you have in a week?
2. Roughly how many hours do you spend on homework in a week?

Thanks!

 

[mfegrad]

Couple of Qs for CMU current students / alumni --

1. Do you have lectures every day of the week ? How many hours of lectures do you have in a week?
2. Roughly how many hours do you spend on homework in a week?

Thanks!

1. saturdays have TA hours, and sundays have no classes.
2. 168 - hours spent in class - hours you need of sleep - hours to run and grab some food. basically...a lot.

 

[Math Andrew]

Couple of Qs for CMU current students / alumni --

1. Do you have lectures every day of the week ? How many hours of lectures do you have in a week?
2. Roughly how many hours do you spend on homework in a week?

Thanks!

1. we have classes 3 or 4 days a week depending on the semester. Saturdays have TAs as mentioned by mfegrad, but they are not required (or you could watch them online)

2. it depends on the class and on your skills. But yes, it's a lot of work. If you are able to manage your time, you have also some free time here and there.